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  #1  
Old 06-03-2010, 05:24 PM
timn1 timn1 is offline
Tim Newcomb
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Location: Illinois
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Default Retrosheet fun

Just playing around, I decided to see how difficult it would be to generate 100 more players for the phantom "T207 extension set." Pretty easy, actually! Based on the 1912 rosters, all these guys played regularly or semi-regularly (100 IP or 150+ AB), yet are not in T207. They WOULD have been in the next group if the ATC had not been broken up -- A lot of big names in there, even more than I thought--

Athletics
Frank Baker
Boardwalk Brown
Eddie Collins
Jack Coombs
Ben Egan
Byron Houck
Harl Maggert
Stuffy McInnis
Eddie Plank

Braves/Doves/Nationals/whatever
Buster Brown
Vin Campbell
Walt Dickson
Otto Hess
George Jackson
Bill Rariden

Browns
Mack Allison
George Baumgardner
Elmer Brown
Pete Compton
Frank LaPorte
Jack Powell
Del Pratt
Burt Shotton
Gus Williams

Cardinals
Jack Bliss
Rube Geyer
Arnold Hauser
Miller Huggins
Lee Magee
Mike Mowrey
Slim Sallee

Cubs
Jimmy Archer
Mordecai Brown
Larry Cheney
Johnny Evers
Solly Hofman
Jimmy Lavender
Lew Richie
Jimmy Sheckard
Heinie Zimmerman

Dodgers/Superbas
Frank Allen
George Cutshaw
Bob Fisher
John Hummel
Herbie Moran
Red Smith
Earl Yingling

Giants
Red Ames
Fred Merkle
Chief Meyers
Red Murray
Tillie Shafer
Jeff Tesreau

Indians/Naps
Ray Chapman
Art Griggs
Joe Jackson
Nap Lajoie
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinpaugh
Bill Steen

Phillies
Pete Alexander
Gavvy Cravath
Mickey Doolan
Bill Killifer
Hans Lobert
Fred Luderus
Sherry Magee
Erskine Mayer
Eppa Rixey
Tom Seaton

Pirates
Babe Adams
Art Butler
George Gibson
Claude Hendrix
Hans Wagner

Red Sox
Hugh Bedient
Hick Cady
Ray Collins
Jake Stahl

Reds
Johnny Bates
Rube Benton
Dick Egan
Jimmy Esmond
Dick Hoblitzell
Bert Humphries
Bobby Keefe
George Suggs

Senators
Carl Cashion
Eddie Foster
Chick Gandil
Bob Groom
Tom Hughes
Danny Moeller
Howie Shanks
Rip Williams

Tigers
Donie Bush
Ty Cobb
Sam Crawford
Jean Dubuc
Davy Jones
Joe Lake
Baldy Louden
Ossie Vitt
Ed Willett

White Sox
Wally Mattick
Ed Walsh

Yankees/Highlanders
Ray Caldwell
Hal Chase
Birdie Cree
Russ Ford
Earl Gardner
Roy Hartzell
Jack Martin
George McConnell
Hack Simmons
Dutch Sterrett
Jeff Sweeney
Guy Zinn

Last edited by timn1; 06-06-2010 at 09:14 AM. Reason: typo
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  #2  
Old 06-03-2010, 05:39 PM
sox1903wschamp's Avatar
sox1903wschamp sox1903wschamp is offline
Michael S
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Nice job on the list Tim. I see only 4 additional Red Sox on your list because that is one team that was well represented in the original set with most of the team already included. What is interesting is that the Red Sox are not well represented in T-206 (only 10 I think, maybe less with a couple of multi poses on Wagner and Stahl). Sure would have been nice to see an extension of the T-207 with more stars.
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  #3  
Old 06-03-2010, 06:30 PM
marcdelpercio marcdelpercio is offline
Marc
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Thanks for the info Tim. I still consider your articles the "bible" of this set and I refer to them constantly. It is easy to imagine additional series scheduled to be released as with the T206 set. In that set there are obviously certain players/series that appear only with certain backs. So I imagine with the T207 set, there may have been other brand backs that were originally on board with the set and scheduled to release over the next several months. It is inexplicable to me, for example, that there are no Piedmont T207's as that brand was the flagship of the T206 and T205 sets. Perhaps that series was scheduled to release but was aborted due to the ATC breakup or other reasons. Or perhaps Piedmonts are the Anonymous Factory 25.

One thing that suggests AGAINST a future series with a lot of stars and other big name players is that the later Broadleaf/Cycle class series that WAS released and comprises a full 1/4 of the set, contains a grand total of zero Hall of Famers or major stars. Logically it doesn't seem likely to me that an even LATER series than that would suddenly be overflowing with all of the big name players which were omitted in the previous series.
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  #4  
Old 06-03-2010, 07:18 PM
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JasonL JasonL is offline
Jason
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Location: The Eastern Seaboard
Posts: 584
Default A great thread...here are mine, plus my big question

Thanks for starting this one, Ted. The most fascinating part about this set, to me (aside from the lack of starpower that has been discussed thoroughly here) is the card surface, or gloss that was mentioned once above in passing. Perhaps I am way off base, but I find that to be the most significantly unique thing about this set, when compared to its contemporary issues. Are there others with this same gloss? what is known about it? was it a new technique in making cards at the time? perhaps this might narrow down what printers could have been making these cards?
any thoughts on this?

I have endeavored to collect the Cubs team set. I have completed it, less the extremely tough Ward Miller. The degree to which the gloss is intact on some of the lionel Carter examples that I own, is fairly impressive, in my humble opinion. Here's half of the 10-card team set...very unique cards, indeed!

PS - Drew: I don't suppose you have a beater duplicate of Ward Miller ?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg T207NeedhamSGC60.jpg (78.2 KB, 272 views)
File Type: jpg T207SaierSGC10.jpg (77.6 KB, 272 views)
File Type: jpg T207ColeSGC40.jpg (77.8 KB, 270 views)
File Type: jpg T207SchulteSGC50.jpg (77.7 KB, 269 views)
File Type: jpg T207ReulbachSGC40.jpg (77.9 KB, 270 views)
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Last edited by JasonL; 06-03-2010 at 07:29 PM. Reason: Ward Miller solicitation
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  #5  
Old 06-03-2010, 09:00 PM
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toppcat toppcat is offline
Dave.Horn.ish
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Not sure it was mentioned prior but T207's seem to have more top to bottom miscuts than other tobacco sets. I wonder if the gloss added some friction in the cutting process that led to this?
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  #6  
Old 06-03-2010, 09:16 PM
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Bridwell Bridwell is offline
Ron Rice
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Location: Texas
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Default Extension Set?

Hi Tim,

That list you made of the next 100 players would make a great addition to the set. I'd certainly be collecting them, if they were made. Lots of big names in there.

I'm thinking that the designer of the set was unable to secure the written authorizations of most of the star players. I do agree that there are enough unpublished players that the original design could have been 300 players, instead of 200. They may have, very simply, sent authorization requests to every team, who handed them out to each player. Some came back signed and some didn't. They may have tried a 2nd time when there was light response. They probably weren't offering any payment, so the stars may have passed on signing it. By then, the stars were getting paid for various endorsements but the common players were happy to just be included. Once they had about 150 authorizations they started making the cards. They later added another series to reach 200. That would explain Marc's observation about the lack of stars in the Broadleaf class/series which was printed a little later. The lesser players might even have asked to be included, while the top players didn't care either way. Maybe a few more authorizations trickled in, but not enough to add another series of 50. Or production was halted, by then, for other reasons. Just wild theories.

Ron
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  #7  
Old 06-04-2010, 07:09 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T207

Sorry guys, but I don't agree with the contention that the 1911 divesture of the ATC monopoly had anything to do with
the make up of the T207 set. I base this on the fact that American Lithographic continued printing white-bordered sets
(T213, T214, and T215) well into 1919. And, their T205, T201, and T202 sets from 1911 to 1912. One constant factor in
all these sets is the repetiveness of the same subjects (stars and commons) from the T206 set.

Therefore, as I've speculated in my initial post here....this set was not printed by American Litho. For whatever reasons,
ATC contracted a different printer to produce these cards. And, therein lies the enigma of why so many of the usual stars
and commons particular to all the above noted Tobacco sets are not in the T207. In my opinion, this is really the only ex-
planation that makes sense.....what are your thoughts on this ?

Eventually, given a sufficient amount of research, we will discover who printed the T207's.


TED Z
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  #8  
Old 06-04-2010, 08:30 PM
marcdelpercio marcdelpercio is offline
Marc
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Ted,
Are you suggesting that the players contracted directly with the printing company rather than with ATC? Otherwise, I don't understand why the use of a different printer would affect the player selection as presumably all of the same players would remain under contract for any ATC release, regardless of the printer they used.
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