Shoeless Joe Jax DIVERSION, why isn't he in any 1911-1917 major T or E-card sets ?

[Bridwell]

Hi Ted,
I have a newspaper ad dated 1911 with Jackson endorsing Brown's Hats. So he probably was not against endorsements during that time. It's possible that the tobacco company authorizations were mailed to the homes of players. This was done in 1908-09 and then the same auths were probably re-used for future sets by ATC.

Jackson didn't spend much time 'reading' his mail, and the auths may have gone out at a difficult time in his career when he was moving around and getting established. Later he appears in Cracker Jack, Texas Tommy and B-18 Blankets around 1914.

Ron R

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted given that most of the major E sets (I think) are 1911 or earlier, and his first real full season was not until 1911, how many major sets issued after he was a well-established player is he really not in, at the end of the day? Maybe we should list those and compare to other players' gaps?

[tedzan]

Peter S

Shoeless Joe played for the New Orleans Pelicans in 1910, batting .354 to lead the Southern Association. In
mid-Sept of 1910, Joe reported to Cleveland and played in 20 games, batting .387....in 1911, he batted .408
in 147 games....in 1912 he batted .395 in 154 games.

Therefore, I'm reprising your words in a question to you. Was he at this point "a well-established player" ?

Peter
CHECK THIS OUT....I have listed 17 pertinent sets that defy all normal reason, as they didn't include Joe Jax.

The following 4 sets include Cobb, Lajoie, Speaker, Wagner.....but no Jackson.

1911 E94
1911 Sporting Life (M116)
1915 E106
1916 Fleischmann

The following Tobacco sets include Cobb, Lajoie, Speaker.....but no Jackson.

1911 T205
1911 T206
1912 T202
1912 T207
1912 T215-1
1913 T215-2

Furthermore, the following Tobacco cards were marketed in the New Orleans area

1910 T213-1 (includes 20 Southern Leaguers in that region)
1914 T213-2
1919 T213-3
1915 T214
1916 T216 MINO, KOTTON, VIRGINIA EXTRA......(these 3 sets include Wagner)


This mystery further deepens !

And, I'm still waiting for some one here (anyone) to provide us a reasonable explanation why Shoeless Joe
is not in any of these sets.....when his peers are in all these sets ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Just some quick thoughts. Joe was almost inactive in the major leagues when the artwork for the T206 was produced. By the time he was in the majors and becoming a star T206 was coming to an end.

Does this help with other issue like T213, T214, and T215 that used T206 artwork as well?

T205's were produced before Joe was in the majors and not having a card in this set should explain his not being included in T202 as they share images as well. I still can't explain why his name wouldn't be included on the description of the center panel photo.

[Abravefan11]

T216 uses images from the E102 set which was also before Joe's time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My best guess is that it is a combination of before his time, sets using same images as before his time, and historical anomaly, and that there really is not any specific explanation such as he didn't give permission for specific reasons.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

T216 uses images from the E102 set which was also before Joe's time.

E106s also re-use art from the 1908 E102 set, so it's no mystery why he's not in those. Also, T213s, T214s and T215s just re-use T206 art, don't they? Outside of the 1911/1912 T-cards, he's in about as many issues as we'd expect.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
"I still can't explain why his name wouldn't be included on the description of the center panel photo."

My two answers to that......
Other than the T210 card of Joe, he apparently gets "No Respect" from ATC (the gist of this thread's contention).
Secondly, have we really ascertained without a doubt that, that centerfold photo actually depicts Joe Jax ?

Furthermore, when the T206 Southern Leaguer (SL) players were in the designing stages, Joe Jax was winning the
batting title at Savannah in 1909.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure that there are other T206 SL players representing Savannah ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

I don't think it was a lack of respect from what I have seen (he was included in T210) but rather a timing issue. Most of the images used in the T206 set and E102 sets were created before Joe was a star and later sets reused the same artwork which didn't include Joe.

I'm not ignoring the T202 panel question I just don't think it is relevant to this discussion and I don't want to derail this topic.

Joe was winning the batting title in 1909 but images for some SLer's were taken from the 1908 season.

[tedzan]

Your...."Joe was winning the batting title in 1909 but images for some SLer's were taken from the 1908 season."

Joe was also winning the batting title with his hometown team, Greenville, batting .346 in 1908. In fact, the pix
of Joe, that American Caramel used for their E90 card, is taken from that team.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Furthermore, to add more "ammo" to this mystery....Dave's (T206DK) lengthy list (post #13) certainly indicates
that Joe Jax allowed many less prominent BB card company's to print his image.

So, why did Joe Jax not appear in the more prominent BB card company's sets, as I've listed in the above post ?

Really, I don't understand why this subject is not eliciting more of a conversation here ? ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted, it's an excellent question. Do you know, on a related matter, why Walter Johnson isn't in so many of the "E" sets?

[tedzan]

We had a thread that discussed Johnson's lack of of visibility on virtually all E-card sets (except for E91) back in 2006.
At this moment, off the top of my head, I do not recall the outcome of our discussion back then. Anyhow, let us save
that subject for another thread; and, get back to the question at hand in this thread


TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Really, I don't understand why this subject is not eliciting more of a conversation here ? ?


TED Z

Thank you for trying, Ted.