How do reserves work in the Legendary auction?

[Bicem]

I'm in the exact same boat Paul, let me know if you hear anything.

[HRBAKER]

I think if they called me and asked me if I wanted to raise my "bid" to X to meet or come close to the reserve that I would only be willing to pay the BP on the amount of my high bid.

[Bicem]

agreed - hidden reserves suck by the way.

[E93]

They could also call the consignors and see if they want to sell their cards for market value.
JimB

[Exhibitman]

I believe the consignors have already stated their positions by contracting for a reserve in the first place.

I'm fine with a reserve. I just bid what I want to bid and if it meets the reserve, great.

I do think that the snippy commentaries about sellers who use a reserve wanting more than "market" are misplaced, though. There is no overarching moral rule that a seller has to take whatever a card brings in an absolute auction, nor is there any fixed price market for cards. So long as the legal requirements for a reserve auction are followed an auctioneer is perfectly within its rights to offer lots subject to a reserve and the prior "market" price on cards is just whatever some seller was willing to accept for the card in the past under some circumtance. Different seller, different set of priorities and different circumstance. That's why it is so difficult and ultimately disingenuous to structure a price guide on theoretical prices for cards that haven't actually transacted; you just don't know...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I do think that the snippy commentaries about sellers who use a reserve wanting more than "market" are misplaced, though. There is no overarching moral rule that a seller has to take whatever a card brings in an absolute auction, nor is there any fixed price market for cards. So long as the legal requirements for a reserve auction are followed an auctioneer is perfectly within its rights to offer lots subject to a reserve and the prior "market" price on cards is just whatever some seller was willing to accept for the card in the past under some circumtance. Different seller, different set of priorities and different circumstance. That's why it is so difficult and ultimately disingenuous to structure a price guide on theoretical prices for cards that haven't actually transacted; you just don't know...

The point of the market comments is not to base the value on what similair cards have sold for in the past, but rather, what the market bore out for this exact card as it was offered in auction. The amount it hammered for is exactly what the current market will bear for the card - if two folks out there there were willing to pay any more, they would have bid higher. Hence, we know the value of the card in the current market.

[rman444]

Originally Posted by Matt

The point of the market comments is not to base the value on what similair cards have sold for in the past, but rather, what the market bore out for this exact card as it was offered in auction. The amount it hammered for is exactly what the current market will bear for the card - if two folks out there there were willing to pay any more, they would have bid higher. Hence, we know the value of the card in the current market.

unless one or more potential buyers didn't want to even bother bidding on an auction with a reserve.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Matt

The point of the market comments is not to base the value on what similair cards have sold for in the past, but rather, what the market bore out for this exact card as it was offered in auction. The amount it hammered for is exactly what the current market will bear for the card - if two folks out there there were willing to pay any more, they would have bid higher. Hence, we know the value of the card in the current market.

I disagree. The hammer price in an auction is a reflection of what the bidders in that particular auction were willing to bid at that time. There are many reasons why prices differ across auctions that have nothing to do with the items themselves:

--By the time the last of the major auctions ends in the spring it is not unusual for me to be tapped out financially for a few months. I will not bid on a card in a later auction if I don't have the cash to pay for it (extreme rarities excepted, of course).

--There are some auctioneers I do not trust and will not patronize. I know others feel the same way.

--With thousands of pages of catalogs (Heritage and REA alone totaled over 1300 pages this spring) I will inevitably miss some things that I would like to have bid on.

--The better an auction from a material perspective the more likely it is that I will run out of money during that auction and will have to pass on some items that I'd have otherwise bid on. Happened to me several times in recent auctions.

--Differences in lot closing rules affect outcomes. For example, Heritage closes lots individually. I won several lots in a HA auction last year and could not take a flyer on some other lots that I'd have otherwise bid on.

--Differences in costs and vig. I factor in the vig and the auctioneer's characteristic shipping behavior. A 10% BP is going to draw a correspondingly higher bid than a 20% BP, and an auctioneer who is known for gouging on shipping will draw a slightly smaller bid from me. Same with sales tax--it all has to factor into the bidding equation. With some auctions I have to add 30%-35% to the actual hammer price to figure my real cost. Those numbers are reflected but not accounted for in the supposed "market" price established by the auction.

--Shilling. Some auctioneers have a rep for shilling and that makes some bidders cautious or reluctant to bid at all.

I'm sure there are other issues that are not intrinsic to the cards themselves that affect the outcomes in a specific auction but I can't think of them right now. My point is that the card 'market' is far less 'perfect' than even the stock market and I think it is a mistake to read too much into one auction result taken out of context.

[Bicem]

of course there's no moral rule about using reserves or not using them, just would be nice if they were at least somewhat realistic is all.

[barrysloate]

There are situations where sellers are only willing to part with something if they can get a crazy price for it, otherwise they would prefer to keep it. That works fine in a one on one transaction, but probably is not ideal for an auction.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I believe the consignors have already stated their positions by contracting for a reserve in the first place.

I'm fine with a reserve. I just bid what I want to bid and if it meets the reserve, great.

I do think that the snippy commentaries about sellers who use a reserve wanting more than "market" are misplaced, though. There is no overarching moral rule that a seller has to take whatever a card brings in an absolute auction, nor is there any fixed price market for cards. So long as the legal requirements for a reserve auction are followed an auctioneer is perfectly within its rights to offer lots subject to a reserve and the prior "market" price on cards is just whatever some seller was willing to accept for the card in the past under some circumtance. Different seller, different set of priorities and different circumstance. That's why it is so difficult and ultimately disingenuous to structure a price guide on theoretical prices for cards that haven't actually transacted; you just don't know...

Exhibitman is dead, solid, perfect with this post.