I'm almost POSITIVE this card features Shoeless Joe...

[botn]

Here is link to a an enormous high resolution scan of the Cleveland player.

www.botn.com/images/LordCatches.jpg

[botn]

The Cleveland Public Library's Microfilm Department has been kind enough to save me a trip. They have provided me with coverage from all 11 games in which the White Sox played in Cleveland. I am reading the articles in chronological order. The headlines for the 2nd game they played (printed in the July 6, 1911 paper) reads "Yes, Joe Jackson Was Surely Out At 3rd Base", the image in the newspaper is at a later point in the slide but it made headlines. Here is a link to a larger version of the scan. www.botn.com/images/CPD050611.jpg

[calvindog]

Jeepers, Greg, that's good detective work.

[Jacklitsch]

WOW!!

Vindication.

[Matt]

well done Greg!

[whitehse]

I am actually amazed that this information was available!! Great detective work!

[HercDriver]

Too bad his foot isn't wrapped...or is it?

Take Care,
Geno

[yanks12025]

I don't think it is wrapped in the photo, just looks black. Also is it me or is it funny that the article talks about how Lajoie hit the ball to Tannehill who threw it to Lord to get Jackson, and both Tannehill and Lord are on the card.

[botn]

Geno has a valid point.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by botn

Here is link to a an enormous high resolution scan of the Cleveland player.

www.botn.com/images/LordCatches.jpg

this scan allows me to see a greater difference now in the nose of one of the Jackson face pics and the sliding player. The noses look very different to me now that I see this blow up. also the left side of the face doesn't seem to match Jackson features. Once again though, the player is probably cringing or gritting his teeth so his face is contorted.

[botn]

I also contacted the staff at Blackbestsy.com and here below is the reply I got from them this morning.

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your interest in Joe and for your comments about the card.

We showed the photo to our boss and Official Historian, Mike Nola and
he said there is no doubt in his mind, the photo is that of Joe
Jackson sliding into third. The hair style, the ears, the laugh
wrinkle (crease) on the left side of his face, the build....all give
it away.....it's Joe Jackson...end of debate!!! Mr Nola took the
photo into Photoshop and enhanced it as much as possible, he has no
doubts....it's Joe Jackson. If we were to dig into our archives, we
could probably tell you with some certainty the day the photo was
taken, but right now, we don't have that kind of time to research this
issue further.

Please do let us know if we can assist further in this matter.


I really enjoyed reading the play by play from 1911. That in itself made this entire process worthwhile. I really do not pay any attention to the game today so it was really nice being able to step back in time and get a see how some of the less prominent names in the game played such an important role in the games.

Still reading the articles and so far no other references have been made to any plays at 3rd involving Lord tagging out a runner.

[Abravefan11]

Greg - Great research.

I'm sure those that want and think this is Joe will think your findings are the smoking gun.

Others will probably say it's a very similar picture but not the actual picture and it doesn't give enough detail to say the two are the same play from the same day.

[bmarlowe1]

Though the top leg sock looks dark, it may be worthwhile to look at some of the other Cleveland papers for that day. Usually the photographers from various newspapers would line up side-by-side in foul territory and snap the same scene from slightly different angles within a fraction of a second of eachother.

[botn]

Geno has made several valid observations. It does appear in the T202 that the SS, Tannehill, is facing away from the play at 3rd (seems he is facing 2nd base) so while the image from the newspaper is close I don't think it is the play which was memorialized in the T202.

Mark,

What do you think about what Mike Nola says? Were you able to use the scan I provided to make any kind of determination on the sliding player?

[tbob]

There's been a lot of discussion about ears, chins, faces, wrinkle lines, sideburns, etc. but nothing said about Joe's slender calves. The T202 picture shows a player sliding in with, what appears to me, slender calves. If you look at blowups of some of the other likely suspects in the Joss Day and other pictures, you don't find a combination of facial and anatomical features with the addition of those skinny legs. I think I am ready to concede that in all probability it is Joe.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by botn

Mark,

What do you think about what Mike Nola says? Were you able to use the scan I provided to make any kind of determination on the sliding player?

I've had excellent correspondence with Mike Nola* several times and he is an expert on JJ. He helped me un-authenticate an item Heritage had mis-labeled (that was based on an erased date). I don't know specifically what his skills are in facial ID. I don't doubt that he feels certain about this image.

In my view, though your scan is a bit better - there still isn't nearly enough their for certainty. If I was advising an author looking for a JJ sliding photo for his book, I would tell him to find another. If the card was in a Library of Congress collection labeled as Lord and Tannehill, I would tell them to leave it that way. If an authenticator asked me if he should authenticate the image as JJ - I would say not.

If you study the subject, you will see an inherent bias against certainty that 2 faces are the same person when you really can't see one of them very well. That's because the mind has a tendency to fill in what you can't see - and not always correctly.

This is a lot more blurry than any image I have ever seen anyone try to seriously identify. I can point to a couple of barely discernable features that seem to be very similar to JJ, and as has been said, it can be JJ. That's where I would leave it unless the photo is found.

* edited to add:
Mike won't remember, but back when I was first getting interested in this stuff I disagreed with an ID of Syd Smith in the Addie Joss day panorama on Mike's site because the player was clearly shorter than Smith's SABR listed height of 5'10". On this Mike was right (Syd was really about 5'5"-5'6") and I have since learned to distrust the early ballplayer height listings. The SABR bio committee chair still refuses to change Smith's height listing.

[brett]

Originally Posted by botn

Geno has made several valid observations. It does appear in the T202 that the SS, Tannehill, is facing away from the play at 3rd (seems he is facing 2nd base) so while the image from the newspaper is close I don't think it is the play which was memorialized in the T202.

If it was the same play it's obvious that the newspaper pic was snapped just after the T202 pic. One thing to keep in mind is that Tannehill also played several games at 2nd base that year. You can see that the shortstop on the T202 card looks lik he's running to cover 2nd base and is almost out of the picture... so maybe that's why he's not in the newspaper shot (not to mention that the newpaper shot is more of a closeup). The back of the T202 makes no mention of who was involved in the play besides Lord, but the pictures and scenario are eerily similar.