T206 Wagner proof strip now in Philly...

[tedzan]

Sorry to disagree with you, but those vertical lines between the cards are seams. This improvised strip was done in 1909
for whatever purposes. Bill Zimplemann discovered it in Wagner's estate near Pittsburgh several decades ago..

And, the inconsistent colors should bother you, because each inking phase of the 6-color process in printing these cards
was applied simultaneously on all cards on a given sheet, panel, or strip.

Finally, your.."And who would take a Wagner and paste it with some other cards?"..is laughable. In 1909 a T206 Wagner
was no different than a T206 Wilhelm.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

I can't explain the lack of color,or the seams,but I can see what M's Fan means by it appearing to be one piece of paper-when you look at the wear between the Young and the Kling,it appears to be one piece.Wouldn't the wear be peeling away down the middle,exposing a paste job?

I've not yet seen any other example of uncut T206 sheets to compare this to,has anyone else?

Clayton

[dstudeba]

As I recall it was found in the pocket of a pair of pants in Wagner's home. I think that is probably where the "carry it around in his back pocket" came from.

I also believe it is a single sheet of printed cards, I do not believe that they are 5 seperate cards pasted together.

[onlychild]

(1) The Wagner's colors are complete, while the colors of the other 4 subjects are incomplete (this is a printing impossibility).

........Wagner's collar is blue, but the other 4 collars are not.

I dunno Ted...compared to the other Wagner's it certainly seems to be missing some or all of the blue.

The seams or lines are sure strange. it would be great to see up close and in person.

[Abravefan11]

Edited to change my opinion.

Looking really closely at the cards below and other examples of the Wagner, it appears the underlying color of the collar is black and not white or gray like the others. So at first look it appears that Wagner's collar has had the color application and the others have not, but it is missing the blue as well.

The images could have been printed simultaneously.

[barrysloate]

I saw the strip in person on a regular basis- it was part of the Halper Collection and when I was a cataloguer at Sotheby's during that time it was there. My memory is it was one continuous strip, but it has been over ten years since I last saw it.

[jeffshep]

Here's a link to it selling at Mastro/Oser back in Aug. 2002 for over $78k. I recall some T3 proofs having a different look than their standard issue counterparts - slight variations in color, perhaps a crisper image.

Now if Bowerman and Wags had only switched places, lookout!

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=27422

[Abravefan11]

Here's a large image of Wagner's collar where you can see the underlying color is black with a blue layer applied on top.

[jmk59]

Tim - very nice layout of the strip and the individual cards in the same order. Thanks for putting it together - makes it very easy to compare and think.

J

[tedzan]

FYI....here are some examples of pre & post-war Salesman's Samples. Such BB card promotional samples (throughout the years)
have preceded new issues. And for obvious reasons, they are always standard production examples of the actual BB cards.

This 5-card (Wagner) "strip" in no way represents a standard production of T206's. In my opinion, it was hastily cobbled together
with individual FRONTS of T206's to provide Wagner a sample of his card.... prior to the T206 production run in the Spring of 1909.
And, as Steve B alluded to, 4 other players were discretely selected from American Litho's T206 proof pile and added to compose
this strip.....perhaps, in order to sway Wagner to grant them the rights to include him in this set.

From what we know about how T206's were printed, a true production uncut horizontal strip of T206's would comprise of at least
6 cards.....and, without lines between these cards, or the alignment cross-hair markings.

No one here has yet presented a plausible argument regarding this "strip" to convince me (and some others), otherwise.







TED Z

[jeffshep]

I was siding with the full printed strip theory, but after staring at it for a bit a few things still have me questioning the possibility of this. First, I would assume the red "B" missing on Bowerman's jersey would also mean Kling and Brown would be lacking their red background color, but clearly it's present. One possibility is that team names were reserved for a separate printing plate, to make necessary changes if a player was traded etc. ATC may have had a multi-year release in mind upon T206's inception.

Second, I've had some truly wretched T206 beaters in my day, but something just looks off in some of those creases - almost as if there is some sort of material composite going on. Look at the upper right corner of Brown - it appears as if a portion of the "top layer" is folded over, touching the edge of Wagner's border.

Third - the toning of the white borders. I've witnessed the discoloring various glues can cause on paper, especially over time - these borders just lack the brilliance most T206's possess. Obviously without card in hand, or a decent hi-res scan, it's difficult to tell. I'm also curious as to what the lightened areas under the proof marks are? To me the borders should be that color, and the rest has been toned down due to the introduction of some sort of adhesive to the reverse. It's possible these "proofs" were printed on thin paper stock, not the usual thicker stock which I believe had some sort of clay coating on the front - hence the lack of brilliance or "pop" in color on the cards.

Just some observations. Regardless, it's an amazing piece - I remember being in awe as a 12yr old when I first saw a pic of it...

[/QUOTE]

[HOF Yankees]

this past march I went to a antiques and collectibles show here in Waukesha,wi and my 2 buddies and I wanted to go and check stuff out, now we scanned the whole show floor nothing real good until we came to one of the last show cases and saw a similar card like that one un graded. I should have bought it to take a chance but the chances were like -.01 percent chance the one I saw at the show was real but for 5.00 I should have taken that chance. Awesome strip card by the way.

[buymycards]

Hi, I have a question about your post. You said that it had the "look and feel" of a T206 but you also said that you never removed it from the glass holder, so how could you feel it?

Not trying to be a smart *** or anything but I am curious about this statement. I do appreciate your input and your experience with cards and I am not trying to be negative in any way.

Thanks,

Rick

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Hi, I have a question about your post. You said that it had the "look and feel" of a T206 but you also said that you never removed it from the glass holder, so how could you feel it?

Not trying to be a smart *** or anything but I am curious about this statement. I do appreciate your input and your experience with cards and I am not trying to be negative in any way.

Thanks,

Rick

I wondered the same thing.....both statements can't be true. Dave

[Jeffrompa]

Hey Leon ,

I print those in my basement everyday .

[deucetwins]

So getting back to the origin and reason for the strip. Assuming that it was given to Wagner to get him to sign on for the production, and following the anti-tobacco myth, were any of the other 4 known non-smokers/tobacco users? This could be a reason that these 4 were included on the strip. Perhaps to entice Wagner to join up after seeing that other anti-tobacco players were signed on. This is an underhanded move by ATC, but how can you print a set without one of the stars of the day? Like an earlier post, I can see why "stars" such as Young and Brown would be included on the strip. However, I'm also curious as to why Kling and Bowerman (commons) would be included on the strip. So was ATC trying to appeal to his ego, his anti-tobacco stance, or as alluded to previously, was it just good ole' fashioned greenbacks that stood in the way?

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to disagree with you, but those vertical lines between the cards are seams. This improvised strip was done in 1909
for whatever purposes. Bill Zimplemann discovered it in Wagner's estate near Pittsburgh several decades ago..

They don't look like seams to me, but I haven't examined the card in person. Does anyone have a scan of the back?

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, the inconsistent colors should bother you, because each inking phase of the 6-color process in printing these cards was applied simultaneously on all cards on a given sheet, panel, or strip..

Again, that is assuming the normal printing processes of T206. I'm just saying that it is quite likely that this test strip was an experimentation piece, where all bets are off. The printer could have been experimenting with all sorts of color processes and sequences.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Finally, your.."And who would take a Wagner and paste it with some other cards?"..is laughable. In 1909 a T206 Wagner
was no different than a T206 Wilhelm. TED Z

I was thinking that someone wouldn't have done this in modern era, I wasn't considering that someone would have done this in 1909. I was thinking that in the modern era, someone with a valuable Wagner wouldn't risk everything to gain so little by attaching it to a sheet. It doesn't make the card more valuable, based on its recent auction. It doesn't add up to me, but I'm admittedly just going on my gut feeling here.

But I really can't see why someone would have done it in 1909 either now that you mention it for the reasons you stated, nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? That someone did this back in the early 1900's is even more unlikely, and actually quite laughable, to borrow a phrase...

[aelefson]

Hi-
I was able to look at this strip a number of years ago when Steve Verkman owned it (or was holding it for the owner). I examined it at one of the Shriner's Wilmington MA shows. I do not recall it feeling/looking like it was made up of several cards pasted onto a strip, but my memory is not the greatest. Perhaps an email to Steve might clear up some of the confusion (or start it anew).
Yours in collecting,
Alan Elefson

[tedzan]

FYI....this so-called strip is blank-backed.

Upon magnification, you will find that the vertical lines between the cards are actually seams.

Regarding your...." nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother
to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? "

This is a very naive comment, there is tons of documentation that tells us how popular these cards were
when they were initially available in 1909. Especially, the major stars of that era (Cobb, Johnson, Lajoie,
Matty, Wagner, CYoung, etc).

And, to the 2nd part of your comment....It didn't require a "card doctor" to craft this strip. The employees
at American Lithograph were high quality craftsman.
It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the
T206 market launch.

Anyhow, I will be traveling down to Citizens Bank Park to catch a Phillies game and get a close up look at
this piece.


TED Z

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding your...." nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother
to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? "

This is a very naive comment, there is tons of documentation that tells us how popular these cards were
when they were initially available in 1909. Especially, the major stars of that era (Cobb, Johnson, Lajoie,
Matty, Wagner, CYoung, etc).

TED Z

I should have phrased my comment better, the cards were popular, but certainly not considered valuable back in 1909-1911. Many people threw the cards away, many gave the cards to kids (who would beg for them outside tobacco shops). So the cards were popular (especially with kids), yes, but not valuable enough for someone to go to the great lengths of creating a fake strip card in hopes of monetary gain. I admit that this is just my opinion, its always possible that someone did that, I'm just saying it seems highly unlikely to me.

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, to the 2nd part of your comment....It didn't require a "card doctor" to craft this strip. The employees
at American Lithograph were high quality craftsman.
It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the T206 market launch.

This is possible, but it seems highly unlikely to me that someone would go to the trouble of making a strip card and hiding the seams. Even if you have the skill to do this, why would you? Wagner won't care if there are seems on his sample. And why even bother to cut cards and then make a strip for Wagner? Why not just easily paste them on a sheet of paper side by side? It just doesn't add up to me that someone would go to this effort, there seems to me no reason to do so. But maybe there is a reason they did it that we don't know of.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Anyhow, I will be traveling down to Citizens Bank Park to catch a Phillies game and get a close up look at
this piece.

TED Z

Let us know how it looks in person, wish I could take a look at this curious piece!

[canjond]

Ted- I've seen the card in person, too, and not sure I can agree with you on this one... at least to the point it is pasted together. What I recall, and what is somewhat evident in the scan, is that the crosshairs on the cards side stretch into each other, overlap, and I believe one is double struck. In order for the pasting theory to hold water, the cards would have needed to be pasted together, then re-run through the printing process in order to get the cross hairs to line up perfectly and overlap each other. Individually printed cards would not create this same effect. Again, while I could see it would be plausible to get all of the crosshairs to line up if cards were individually printed and then pasted together, it would be impossible to get the overlapping crosshairs unless they were printed after the cards were reattached.

[camlov2]

I have never seen the piece in person, however there are a few things that stand out to me-
It seems like there is chipping between the Bowerman and Young cards (upper half) right along where the two cards would come together. The crease to the right of the Young card also seems to follow perfectly where the two cards would meet. I would guess seperate cards due to those two items and the difference in colors.

unrelated question- Why does it appear if there are lighter circles underneath all of the printers marks?

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by tedzan

FYI....this so-called strip is blank-backed.

Upon magnification, you will find that the vertical lines between the cards are actually seams.

Regarding your...." nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother
to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? "

This is a very naive comment, there is tons of documentation that tells us how popular these cards were
when they were initially available in 1909. Especially, the major stars of that era (Cobb, Johnson, Lajoie,
Matty, Wagner, CYoung, etc).

And, to the 2nd part of your comment....It didn't require a "card doctor" to craft this strip. The employees
at American Lithograph were high quality craftsman.
It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the
T206 market launch.

Anyhow, I will be traveling down to Citizens Bank Park to catch a Phillies game and get a close up look at
this piece.
TED Z

i love how me and Ted think alike!

this is what i believe the majority of "blank back" cards to be....SAMPLES that Amer Litho employees would use to sell the art to different companies...



TED Z[/QUOTE]

[Cardboard Junkie]

I just plowed through this whole thread......so it's not vertical seams?
Not separate cards "pasted" together?
Actually a "proof" strip?

Cool.

[atx840]

One of my favourite T206 pieces...hope to finish and have it litho printed one day. Recreated using original portraits.