Crossover Issue

[Rich Klein]

Probably everyone is a bit at fault here

1) Dan for not realizing that he could ask for a minimum grade. He may never have done this before. In addition, why did he want to move these cards to SGC from PSA. I think there is little doubt that Dan is looking for a profit motive; but ultimately HE needs to take responsibility for not reading or knowing about a minimum grade request. I find myself agreeing with the Behrens brother that he is not accepting his responsibility

Having said that: the problem is "its called fine print" and Dan missed it -- man up to that and you'll get more respect from the other posters. I am, however, sympathetic to his issue - and there is nothing like seeing grades from one company drop when they go to another company (That is amongst the major companies; obviously GEM and PRO. etc, == most of us expect drops from THOSE companies if and when they cross)

2) Brian from SGC could have mentioned, although he does not need to, that there is a minimum grade caveat. It appears from some of these posts, that a quick disucssion BEFORE these cards were submitted that this whole imbroglio could have been avoided. Perhaps this could also serve as a good learning tool for Brian. (I will say that I have met Brian at Leon's dinners and he is certainly a good rep for SGC). And I know things get harried at shows, BUT sometimes taking another 30 seconds, especially with a new client to see exactly what they want, is time well spent. Better to have all the ducks in order (or whatever that horrible metaphor is) rather than have a situation like this pop up. We've all been guilty of that, but the extra 30 seconds can sometimes save you hundreds of hours on the back end

Regards
Rich

[Peter_Spaeth]

Whatever else comes out of this thread, Dan's pic of the pile of cracked SGC slabs is priceless. If third party grading ever goes down in flames, the pic would make a great epitaph.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever else comes out of this thread, Dan's pic of the pile of cracked SGC slabs is priceless. If third party grading ever goes down in flames, the pic would make a great epitaph.

Hasn't GAI already done this once, or is it twice

[Peter_Spaeth]

"When submitting crossover you must state a minimum grade you will accept for each crossover."

So how did Dan do a large submission with NO minimum grade?

[Rich Klein]

Submitting a minimum grade is MANDATORY for a cross-over. Rather this is a box that has to be submitted or noted. Yes; Dan SHOULD have noted what he wanted -- but I'll also say, and I thought I read this about Michael's booth work (I could be wrong) in this thread, that a few seconds from Brian, other than accepting the order, might have saved this whole scenario.

Even Brian saying something like: "You do understand that your grades may all be lower than what they are in the PSA slabs based on what our graders see" is perfectly acceptable.

Jeff L.

I tend to agree with you on this:


If I had to put a blame percent:

Dan 90-95%; SGC 5-10%. At some point, like my original sentence said; DAN HAS to take responsibility

Regards
Rich

[barrysloate]

The best we can hope for from the grading services is consistency- both in grading cards, and how submitters are treated. Jeff did remind us about one major collector of PSA cards who resubmitted his massive collection for half grade bumps, and was literally given the royal treatment as hundreds of them got bumps and not a single one a downgrade. Everyone agreed that was simply not fair (I know anyone can resubmit for a half bump but when you give them 5000 cards you get the VIP treatment).

All that happened to Dan, as frustrating as it was to him, is that SGC gave his cards a close look and believed they were overgraded. Again, it would be nice if the criteria for grading were standard, but each service has its own view on how cards should be assessed. If there's one thing we learned from this thread it's that the crossover game is a risky one, without the proper safety nets in place.

[calvindog]

Rich, I understand that in order for everyone to feel good about what went on with Dan it is important to spread the blame around. But the only mention of crossover submissions on SGC's submission form is as follows:

Crossover Cards from other grading services are reviewed for SGC certification. The minimum grade for a crossover must be equal or less than the original grade. SGC will not accept crossover with a higher minimum grade than originally assigned. When submitting crossover you must state a minimum grade you will accept for each crossover.

How can it be considered fine print when the only mention of crossovers on the form is the above information? Regardless, what experienced collector doesn't know the details of crossovers? And isn't the above info clear enough? Should it come in audio or video form as well on the form?

Everyone here has empathy for Dan as he really got hammered due to a clearly honest mistake. But there is something to be said for the fact that Dan was handled by SGC the way any of us are when submitting cards to SGC. There were no mentions of 'special' deals which only the HOF members or high volume submitters get. Didn't that piss everyone off when we read about one board member getting special treatment when submitting his entire collection for a review at PSA?

I'm not saying that any of the third party graders are without fault -- because they all are in certain areas -- but I can't really see any blame on SGC for this one.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Everyone here has empathy for Dan as he really got hammered due to a clearly honest mistake. But there is something to be said for the fact that Dan was handled by SGC the way any of us are when submitting cards to SGC. There were no mentions of 'special' deals which only the HOF members or high volume submitters get. Didn't that piss everyone off when we read about one board member getting special treatment when submitting his entire collection for a review at PSA?

Jeff, you make a good point because I was one of the many who got ticked when C******* got special treatment from PSA.

[thegashousegang]

Whew - finally caught up on this thread. Nothing much to say that hasn't been mentioned already, except that if you are going to send in that many cards to be graded, how could you not have done your 'homework' beforehand...especially if money was the underlying motive.

[Jacklitsch]

"Jeff, you make a good point because I was one of the many who got ticked when C******* got special treatment from PSA."

Are we not allowed to use his name or has Leon programed it in as a curse word that auto defaults to *********?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jacklitsch

"Jeff, you make a good point because I was one of the many who got ticked when C******* got special treatment from PSA."

Are we not allowed to use his name or has Leon programed it in as a curse word that auto defaults to *********?

It's not a curse word. I don't even dislike the guy, Jim Crandall. He collects differently and really only collects by number, from what I remember, but to each their own. I harbor no ill feelings towards almost anyone in the hobby...except 1 rooster molestor .

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by Leon

It's not a curse word. I don't even dislike the guy, Jim Crandall. He collects differently and really only collects by number, from what I remember, but to each their own. I harbor no ill feelings towards almost anyone in the hobby...except 1 rooster molestor .

I'll see if I can beat Barry here...it's "molester".

I can't believe some of the things he posts but that's another story.

To quote my buddy Brian..."be well"

Steve

P.S. You do know my post was tongue in cheek?

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Jacklitsch

"Jeff, you make a good point because I was one of the many who got ticked when C******* got special treatment from PSA."

Are we not allowed to use his name or has Leon programed it in as a curse word that auto defaults to *********?

Steve- ok, rather than type "He Who Must Not Be Named," the missing letters were randall.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by thegashousegang

Whew - finally caught up on this thread. Nothing much to say that hasn't been mentioned already, except that if you are going to send in that many cards to be graded, how could you not have done your 'homework' beforehand...especially if money was the underlying motive.

I think what happened was that Dan met Brian of SGC, and Brian, in effect, said that "we'll take care of your cards." Dan, probably incorrect assumed that meant that most of the cards would crossover at the same grade, so no homework or minimum grade was needed. It was an incorrect assumption, which has obviously cost Dan thousands of dollars. As people have said, Brian might have mentioned minimum grade for crossover to Dan to avoid this, but he was under no obligation to do so. And that's how we ended up with this super-long thread.

[rman444]

Perhaps Dan could confirm whether or not Brian mentioned anything about minimum grades when the cards were submitted?

[4815162342]

Everyone hates PSA... until it's time to sell.

[tedzan]

As much as I dislike graded cards....when it is necessary to have any of my cards graded, I submit them to SGC.
Brian Dwyer, Derek Grady, Mike Goldberg and the rest of the crew at SGC are the best.
I've had a bad experience (or two) with PSA in the past and that turned me off.

I don't do crossovers, it is a risky business....and, especially when you are going from PSA to SGC.
Crossing-over graded cards to gain a slight edge (and perhaps more $$$$) is not my style.
I guess I'm just a "dinosaur" collector.

But, to each his own.


T-Rex TED

[aelefson]

Hi-
Everyone should collect how they want to collect but I 100% agree with Ted Z. Raw is the only way I have ever (and will ever) collect. I have never even bought a single graded card and I hope I never do. I do understand why most folks collect graded cards (protection, authenticity, competition through the set registries) but it will never be for me.
That being said, several posters have already aired the point I wanted to make. Grading is subjective, so grades will change on resubmittal whether through another grading company or the same grading company. It is only human beings doing the grading afterall.
Yours in collecting,
Alan Elefson

[tedzan]

Barry......et al

Well stated Barry.... and, your prior post (#124) sums up this situation very succinctly......

"No question Dan that the hobby lives and dies by grading. Too bad it evolved that way, but that's the way it is."


BUT GUYS....it doesn't have to be this way....you have "CHOICE".

Choose to enjoy life, by returning to the age old, time-tested hobby of collecting BB cards in their natural state....

UN--freakin--GRADED


I guarantee you, you will enjoy this hobby much more....spend less $$$$$....and, even live longer


This message is from the handful of Net54er's that have an aversion for Graded cards....and, is posted in honor of
our departed Joe P....who would've said it better than me.

[barrysloate]

Joe P. might have said it better...but we wouldn't have understood a word of it.

[glynparson]

Dan you certainly picked an issue I would not have recommended for crossover to SGC. It is my experience they are much tougher on these cards T207 then PSA. These cards tend to have cracks and/or wrinkles which SGC will almost always hit you much harder for then PSA. I tend to think SGC is more lenient on corner wear across the board on mid grade T cards. The fact is there are certain issues and or flaws that SGC will grade harsher then PSA and vice versa. If you do resubmit to PSA please let us know how you do.

[timn1]

"BUT GUYS....it doesn't have to be this way....you have "CHOICE".

Choose to enjoy life, by returning to the age old, time-tested hobby of collecting BB cards in their natural state....

UN--freakin--GRADED


I guarantee you, you will enjoy this hobby much more..."
______________________________

I hope I'll live longer too, but in any case, I love to crack 'em out, and I love buying 'em raw even more!

Tim

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by timn1

"BUT GUYS....it doesn't have to be this way....you have "CHOICE".

Choose to enjoy life, by returning to the age old, time-tested hobby of collecting BB cards in their natural state....

UN--freakin--GRADED


I guarantee you, you will enjoy this hobby much more..."
______________________________

I hope I'll live longer too, but in any case, I love to crack 'em out, and I love buying 'em raw even more!

Tim

LOVE your above, Tim. Lot's o' LOVE going on here

Thanks for quoting me.

P.S......Anyone want to buy 600+ cracked plastics (flips are still intact and some are labelled "6's, and even a few 8's") ? ?


TED Z