Cobb back is not T206 and here's why...

[usernamealreadytaken]

Look, I have no deep interest either way on the Cobb/Cobb; it is what it is and calling it a T206, T206-1 or XSZ889 doesn't change what it looks like, when it was printed and how it was distributed or how somebody with a ton of money got it. And if anyone thought my intention with this thread was to have unanimous agreement and a rewrite of card cataloging, that is not so. I just threw an idea out for healthy debate and discourse. Sadly, the only one who responded (beyond "that's the way it is") was Peter who made a good, sound point to reject my theory.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by usernamealreadytaken

Look, I have no deep interest either way on the Cobb/Cobb; it is what it is and calling it a T206, T206-1 or XSZ889 doesn't change what it looks like, when it was printed and how it was distributed or how somebody with a ton of money got it. And if anyone thought my intention with this thread was to have unanimous agreement and a rewrite of card cataloging, that is not so. I just threw an idea out for healthy debate and discourse. Sadly, the only one who responded (beyond "that's the way it is") was Peter who made a good, sound point to reject my theory.

Maybe if everyone responds the same way there is a reason for it? We have discussed this subject probably hundreds of times and we might discuss it 100's more.... What JimVB said is quite on the mark.

[sgbernard]

Originally Posted by Leon

What JimVB said is quite on the mark.

Agreed: we can argue whether it should have been designated T206, but the fact is that it was designated. That doesn't mean it's right (and it may not be right), it just means that it was. JimVB said it much better than me.

[Abravefan11]

While I agree with the veteran board members that if you're going to use the ACC designations that the Cobb back is a T206 because Burdick said so, I also think it should be acceptable to talk about why he may have classified cards the way he did and why we may classify them differently with what we know today.

Chris to answer your question if I were to classify the white border cards in a similar method to Burdick I would not include the Cobb back in a group with the other cards we call T206's. My opinion could be changed easily as I don't profess to have all the facts.

Though this subject has been discussed over and over I am curious what those that care think of the following.

American Tobacco had controlling interest in F.R. Penn at the time that the Cobb brand tobacco was produced. However the Penn family still had operational control of the company. Isn't it possible that Penn had ALC produce these cards for their tobacco with the blessing of ATC? If this were the case wouldn't it be an F.R. Penn issuse and not an ATC issue? Couldn't this also explain minor differences such as gloss?

Sorry Jim VB, some of us are just nerds for these kinds of details.

[teetwoohsix]

Wow Tim,that is an interesting theory,and it has my mind spinning!!

The tricky part for me is whether it would be considered an ATC issue or an F.R. Penn issue,,,,,,,,,,,,,because as you pointed out, American Tobacco had controlling interest in F.R. Penn at the time the Cobb brand tobacco was produced, but the Penn family still had operational control of the company.

With that being said, I would tend to think it would have to be considered an ATC issue,being that they had controlling interest.

I think you have came up with one of the best theories I have heard yet Tim, regarding the Cobb/Cobb-I'm sure I'll be dwelling on this all night-thanks

Sincerely,Clayton

[Chicago206]

Many, many things have been miscategorized throughout the history of mankind. Fortunately, most humans are logical creatures and very adaptable. We are able to admit when a mistake has been made, and then make the correction on most things. But much like the Catholic church, vintage card hobbyists have decided its better to be rigid and unchanging than to admit a mistake in judgement has been made. For this reason, the Cobb/Cobb will probably forever remain categorized as a T206, although incorrectly as such. It clearly displays more differences than similarities with the other 15 brands as a group. Just the fact that this topic is so frequently discussed is proof that something is amiss!

I doubt anyone has challenged Polar Bear because of its 1 difference from the rest of the group. Same goes for American Beauty for its glaring 1 difference from the group. But the Cobb/Cobb has at least 2 major physical differences from the group, and then a couple of other differences in regards to distribution, time of issue (completely unknown and unproven), as well as control over who owned the company itself (at the time the card was assumed to have been produced). To me, the Cobb/Cobb is nothing more than an afterthought to the rest of the T206 series. It was produced as a slick marketing tool (most likely never even associated with distribution in actual tobacco products) to help sales of a very unpopular brand of tobacco. Think of it as the cardboard cutout of Michael Jordan from the 90's Gatorade ad campaign. Nobody would consider that a "sports card" even though its made of the same material. It was just a marketing tool, much like the Cobb/Cobb.

[usernamealreadytaken]

As far as EPDG, all of the other backs have some reference to a number of backs or "large assortment" or "assorted designs." Coupon 213-1 also reference baseball series but, like EPDG, provide no indication to the size/scope of the distribution...

After thinking on the Cobb/Cobb or any other back, I am content to let 'er rest. In other words, we will never successfully reclassify what is or is not a "T206" and the point that T206 is Burdick's creation is not lost on me. I like and encourage the investigation and theories, but at the end of the day, it is an arbitrary designation and the cards are what they are. It is up to the collector to pick what makes a complete set in their mind.

Put another way, "T206" have a list of backs included; it does not enumerate a set of criteria for being a T206 for us to then catagorize cards. Even if the smoking gun (an advertisement or legal document) conclusively puts Cobb at a later date or different distribution vehicle, it is a T206 becuase a "T206" is a "T206"...

[tedzan]

1st....what does the Catholic Church have to do with this subject matter ? ?

2nd....regarding your comment...."time of issue (completely unknown and unproven)"

IS TOTALLY FALSE !


We have Macon, Georgia Newpaper clippings reporting of this card in the Spring of 1910.

FURTHERMORE, Senator Russell's T206 and T210 collection (on display at the U. of Georgia) includes
a Ty Cobb back card. It is documented.....Mr. Russell collected his tobacco cards as a teenager in the
year of 1910. Therefore, American Litho. printed & issued this card in 1910.......

DO YOU GET IT, NOW ?


Once again, if you bothered to use the SEARCH feature on this forum you would have learned all this.
Before you made these erroneous comments.



TED Z

[E93]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

It clearly displays more differences than similarities..

Clearly

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Sorry Jim VB, some of us are just nerds for these kinds of details.

Tim,

Absolutely no reason for you to apologize to me. There is plenty of room for debate as to whether or not Burdick got it wrong or right, by including it in that set.

My point was, he did include it. And since it's his classification, it's a done deal.