Deadball Player Skill???

[ullmandds]

I think the way players held bats back then...hands apart at times...was because the game was different and placing the batted ball where you wanted was more prevalent than going for the home run. I'm sure the caliber of play has improved over the years...as in any games evolution.

[T206Collector]

The Pre-War game is a lot closer than you think --

Jamie Moyer played against...
Pete Rose who played against...
Yogi Berra who played against...
Red Ruffing who played against...
Ty Cobb.

4 degrees of separation from Moyer to Cobb! Can anyone do better?!

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The Pre-War game is a lot closer than you think --

Jamie Moyer played against...
Pete Rose who played against...
Yogi Berra who played against...
Red Ruffing who played against...
Ty Cobb.

4 degrees of separation from Moyer to Cobb! Can anyone do better?!

For those who want to play the game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

For those who want to play the game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/

Bummer. The engine couldn't find a connection between Wagner and Ripken.

Bill

[familytoad]

I think Milkit hit it out of the park, that the photos don't reflect the action shots... but also that almost all of the players were "hit 'em where they ain't" rather than hit it over the fence. A worn out, deadball surely didn't help.

A different style of skill for sure...more of a Rod Carew, Ichiro thing than a Rob Deer,Steve Balboni style.

In some respects, that old deadball style had more of the "thinking man's" element than later years...of course some might argue that these players were often playing with "Waner's flask" in the hip pocket so maybe there is a reason they look less athletic
Call it the "drinking man's game"

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

For those who want to play the game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/

For the record, while I used BBRef to help me with some of the older players that played the game, I did not use the ORACLE!

[M's_Fan]

I would agree that the players may seem unskilled because the game was just so different then. Comparing a Ty Cobb to Albert Pujols, and it seems like the players today are more athletic, bigger, and skilled. However, when you compare, for example, Ty Cobb or Willie Keeler to Ichiro, there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference. In other words, you have to compare apples to apples.

Not only is the game generally different today, more importantly it is very specialized, every position and spot in the batting order has a very tight category and role. The Ty Cobbs that dominated the deadball era would be stars today, but they would likely be batting 1st or 2nd rather than 3rd or cleanup.

Likewise, some of the famous starting pitchers of the deadball era would categorized as relievers and closers if they were to play today. We could argue this all day, but I think of all around pitchers like Mathweson and Johnson as starters, and one-two pitch specialists like Mordecai Brown as closers. And personalities like Rube Waddell would be the John Rockers bullpen types of today. Its all fun to think about....

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by M's_Fan

I would agree that the players may seem unskilled because the game was just so different then. Comparing a Ty Cobb to Albert Pujols, and it seems like the players today are more athletic, bigger, and skilled. However, when you compare, for example, Ty Cobb or Willie Keeler to Ichiro, there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference. In other words, you have to compare apples to apples.

Not only is the game generally different today, more importantly it is very specialized, every position and spot in the batting order has a very tight category and role. The Ty Cobbs that dominated the deadball era would be stars today, but they would likely be batting 1st or 2nd rather than 3rd or cleanup.

Likewise, some of the famous starting pitchers of the deadball era would categorized as relievers and closers if they were to play today. We could argue this all day, but I think of all around pitchers like Mathweson and Johnson as starters, and one-two pitch specialists like Mordecai Brown as closers. And personalities like Rube Waddell would be the John Rockers bullpen types of today. Its all fun to think about....

There is no doubt that the players of today are bigger, stronger, and faster than those in past eras. Babe Ruth was considered a giant among players at the time. He would be below average size today. The biggest difference is among pitchers. Modern pitchers are 5-6 inches taller and 40-50 lbs. heavier than those in even the 1920's and 1930's.

This isn't just baseball, but any sport, and, in fact, life in general. Sports that are measurable (e.g.- Track & Field, Swimming) bear this out.

But you can olny compare players against those they played against in their day. The greatest players of their day will always be great players.


Edit: I just did a quick comparison of the 1927 Yankees and the 2009 Yankees. The average starting, position player in 1927 was 6'0", 185 lbs. In 2009 the average starter was 6'2", 209 lbs. (Babe Ruth and Hideki Matsui are about the same size.)

The average of their 5 main pitchers in 1927 was 5'11", 175 lbs. In 2009 those numbers were 6'5" and 239 lbs.

[ctownboy]

Here is my take on this subject;

The differences mostly have to do with the baseball.

Back then, the baseballs were softer than they are today. Then you start adding in factors like:

1) they only used a few balls a game (thus making the mushy balls even mushier).

2) those balls got stained with grass and dirt so they weren't as easy to see as a clean white ball.

3) the balls got nicked and scuffed thus allowing the pitcher to get different grips and more movement on their pitches.

4) the spit ball was still legal.

So, a batter back then might be trying to hit a mushy, mud stained ball with small cuts and spit on it and be attempting to do so at dusk. I don't think that would be too easy to do even if the pitchers were only throwing 70 MPH.

Things changed after Ray Chapman was hit and killed. Offenses (Home Run hitters) were the recipients of this good luck while slap.contact Singles hitters were made less relevant.

On top of all of that, fields back then were not as well groomed as today and the gloves were MUCH smaller. So, it made ALL the sense in the world to try and just make contact and put the ball in to play instead of just swinging with everything they had like a lot of batters do today.

A slow, defensively challenged, strike out prone player like Adam Dunn would NOT have very much of a chance to make the Major Leagues back then because his skill set did NOT match up well with the type of play. Today, he gets paid millions of dollars for basically being a beer league soft ball player.

David

[ElCabron]

The Oracle just does a chain of teammates, not "played against."

-Ryan

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Here is my take on this subject;

The differences mostly have to do with the baseball.

Back then, the baseballs were softer than they are today. Then you start adding in factors like:

1) they only used a few balls a game (thus making the mushy balls even mushier).

2) those balls got stained with grass and dirt so they weren't as easy to see as a clean white ball.

3) the balls got nicked and scuffed thus allowing the pitcher to get different grips and more movement on their pitches.

4) the spit ball was still legal.

So, a batter back then might be trying to hit a mushy, mud stained ball with small cuts and spit on it and be attempting to do so at dusk. I don't think that would be too easy to do even if the pitchers were only throwing 70 MPH.

Things changed after Ray Chapman was hit and killed. Offenses (Home Run hitters) were the recipients of this good luck while slap.contact Singles hitters were made less relevant.

On top of all of that, fields back then were not as well groomed as today and the gloves were MUCH smaller. So, it made ALL the sense in the world to try and just make contact and put the ball in to play instead of just swinging with everything they had like a lot of batters do today.

A slow, defensively challenged, strike out prone player like Adam Dunn would NOT have very much of a chance to make the Major Leagues back then because his skill set did NOT match up well with the type of play. Today, he gets paid millions of dollars for basically being a beer league soft ball player.

David

David,

All are very valid points and all contribute to the differences in the game. But in 1927, the World record in the 100 Meters was 10.4 seconds. It's now 9.58. That's an improvement of 7.9%, before we even account for Electronic Timing differences.

In the Shot Put the World record in 1927 was just under 51'. It's now 75' 10 3/4". That's an improvement of 48.8% (Also indicative of a steroid problem, as that record has stood for almost 20 years.)

We are bigger, stronger and faster than we used to be. (I, on the other hand, seem to be bigger, stronger, and much slower.)

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I think the way players held bats back then...hands apart at times...was because the game was different and placing the batted ball where you wanted was more prevalent than going for the home run. I'm sure the caliber of play has improved over the years...as in any games evolution.

I recently read a book about Walter Johnson - Baseball's Big Train by Henry Thomas (whom I believe is a board member) and the section on his speed relative to both other deadball ptichers of the era and modern pitchers was very interesting. I need to preface the following by saying that the mehtods of measuring Johnson's speed - although electronic - were done at a gun range, in street clothes and in a manner which forced him to pitch in an unorthodox manner to hit the target required to measure his speed.

On pg. 105 Thomas details how in October of 1912 Johnson went to the Remington Arms gun range to settle some of the debate brought about by FC Lane (editor of Baseball Magazine) and the frequent discussion about how much faster Walter Johnson pitched than other deadball pitchers. The test also included Nap Rucker, who was purported to be the fastest pitcher in the NL.

At length, the testers had difficulty accomodating Johnsons side arm delivery such that the baseball would travel through a wire timing apparatus and hit a steel plate some distance away. After numerous adjustments, while in street clothes, with various adjustments to his normal delivery, they got a several readings. The method and manner in which the tests were done most certainly affected the speed at which he was able to pitch. The speed of the baseball going through the trip wires was measured at 82 MPH; while Nap Ruckers was measured at 75.9 MPH.

Most certainly Johnson pitched faster than this in game situations - but being able to pitch almost 8% faster than other pitchers of that era, certainly is impressive.

In June of 1933, Lefty Gomez and Van Mungo, purported to be two of the fastest pitchers of the '30's, were tested at West Point presumably with more modern equipment. Mungo registered in at the same as Ruckers (75.9 MPH) and Gomez came in at a shade under 75 MPH.

- M Wheat

[ethicsprof]

Looking at my T222 Lapp and seeing that huge,floppy catcher's mitt, i'm so amazed at how well the players did their job with such limited resources compared to the modern day.
I must say i somehow prefer the limited resources and the giftedness of their
gameplaying over most everything modern.
best,
barry

[SteveMitchell]

Just a quick note of thanks for all who posted on this subject. I really enjoyed reading the arguments on all sides.

The small change in raw speed (100 meters time) over many years really caught my eye. As a high school freshman my school had a rolled cinders track that wasn't much good even for the early sprint events and was soup by the end of the meet. Spikes were quite heavy (lead weights would not be a completely unfair description) even as late as the 1960's - especially compared with the featherlights of the past few decades.

All in all, I'm quite convinced that the deadball era's players were men of significant accomplishment within the rules and limitations of their day, and certainly worthy of being called Major Leaguers. Today's game still has appeal for me - though I don't look forward to opening day as I once did - due to the over-exposure, detailed analysis and cheating (especially steroids).

For me, the dedication of Lawrence S. Ritter's classic The Glory of Their Times applies:

"This book is dedicated to the men who live within its pages. . . 'All these were honored in their generation, And were the glory of their times. Ecclesiasticus 44:7'"

[prewarsports]

As a former College Baseball player myself and someone who has faced 93-97 MPH Fastballs in my time, I can assure you that being able to throw a Baseball fast is a gift and not really a developed talent. I have met kids with no formal baseball coaching and no weight training programs and who lived off of Hostess cupcakes and Mt. Dew who could hit 90+ MPH on a radar gun. They were just born with the ability. I think it would be extremely ethnocentric to believe that similar guys 100 years ago could not do the same thing.

I am 100% convinced that Walter Johnson and Bob Feller and most likely even Amos Rusie could throw as fast as anyone today, 95-100 mph.

For Example, I went to a Seattle Mariners game a few years ago and Brandon Morrow was pitching. Skinny 19-20 year old kid with pimples still on his face. He got up to the mound and shot several pitches at 103 MPH on the stadium gun. Whether he was born in 1990 or 1890, that kid would be pitching the same speed because he was not the product of modern science (his arms looked like skinny garden hoses). He was just born with the ability to throw a 100 MPH fastball. Maybe coaches and conditioners helped him harness his God given ability by 5 MPH, but nothing modern made that Fastball go from 80-103 MPH.

Just my thoughts

Rhys


Rhys