T206 backs in scarcity order

[E93]

Let me give another example to explain the reasoning. Let's assume one woman made it into the major leagues. Generally speaking, the classification category of Major League ball players only includes men, but there is a single example of a woman in that category now. Why? Because the criteria is simply that one plays in the major leagues. Having different biological characteristics was never a criteria for determining wether or not somebody was a major league ballplayer. One can make a new category of major league ball players with male organs, but that does not change the old category.

Likewise, if one wants to make a new category for tobacco cards that includes all white bordered ATC cards with baseball fronts produced between 1909-1911 and advertising ATC brands, but excluding those for which 85% of known copies have a glossy front or for which the brand only has one front, that is fine. But it is not "T206".

By the way, the glossy front that bothers you so much begs the question of why 20% of them do NOT have a glossy front. Perhaps they started without it and then ATC decided to make the cards for this limited edition specialty brand special and added the gloss. WHo knows? Would that eliminate it? I don't think so.
JimB

[cfc1909]

I will admitt-the Cobb card kills me-mainly because I do not own one...

the card would only be challenged by brown Lenox or brown Old Mill-all three are close in total number of cards known. I am not sure if it is a 206 but I would love to have it in my 206 collection.

I mainly got rid of it because I am not sure and also because Chan included and put it at the top of the list along with his creations to create a market for
his creations. If he put them right under Cobb/Cobb so they would be worth Cobb money and he would benifit from it greatly and did.
Another reason I didn't include it is because it only has one front-I am just not sure.


Lee-you have to look for Pied 42 and Sweet Cap 460-25-I picked at least 20 examples each off of ebay. It seems you picked up 3 each without looking for them. It is each collectors expirience-I just feel I needed to post it and tried to make it as accurate as possible.
Seems it is closer than what was being used

Now we might need a place here for it to be referanced and used by all 206 collectors and mainly by beginners-so they are not being Channed-I mean scammed.

[tedzan]

In the final defense of my position regarding AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 scarcity.....I agree with Jim R in that if you
are just looking for a "Type Back", certain AB 460 cards might not be as tough as, say a given BROAD LEAF 350.

And this is true, if any AB 460 will do. The following AB 460 cards are quite often seen......

Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
McGraw (glove at hip)
Tannehill (Chicago)


Most of the other 70 - AB 460 cards are seldom seen, here are some of them......

Conroy (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)


Therefore, if you are trying to collect this sub-set of 73-77 cards, I can guarantee you that it will be a challenge
that will continue for many years.

Hey guys, am I the only one here (besides Lee B) that collects these various T206 sub-sets ?


TED Z

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Hi Jim I agree it does need to be posted some where (Old Cardboard?)

What is the reasoning behind the AB 350 no Frame being so tough. I would buy AB's with and did not worry about the frame or no frame and have at an equal amount of both.

Lee

[cfc1909]

I always felt AB 350 no frame was tougher because they were only printed on the 350-460 subject cards-66 I think and AB 350 frame is in the 350 series with over 200 possibilities.

[scottglevy]

Yup....this discussion is definitely geared towards my addiction of T206 backs - I think that I've checked the thread four times today for updates

I agree that the Cobb/Cobb is a tough decision. If it were included I'd probably place it at #1 on the list. Although the total number of known Cobb/Cobb examples (14 or 15) known likely exceeds the known number of OM or Lenox brown cards - I find it not only possible but likely that several undiscovered examples of each exist. In fact, the OM brown in my collection was purchased by my dad many years ago and no special mention of the color was made. I don't think that a Cobb backed card would (or could) ever fly under the radar.

I would personally vote for the Cobb/Cobb to be included - I am biased though. This is probably the toughest call of all to make.

What a fun topic !!

-SGL

[Brian Weisner]

Hi JimB,
I agree with JimR that Cobb/Cobb gets left off of most lists due to the cost associated with acquiring one.... While I do believe that it was distributed differently than the rest of the "T206 set", it was produced by the same company and does belong on the list....

Hi Jim, Ted, Scott, Barry, etc....
I think we will continue to tweak this list as we plow forward toward the "Superset"....



Be well Brian


PS Can we go back 6-7 years when no one cared about the backs.....?

[Leon]

I can go either way on the Ty Cobb - Cobb back card. Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread but I thought for some time it was thought to maybe have come in the tins? Was that thought completely dispelled?

[ethicsprof]

I must say that when JimB puts on his professor hat and argues with
philosophical and logical acumen, it is most refreshing and convincing.
The arguments regarding Burdick's classification system coupled with
Ted's corroborative newspaper articles and the illustrative analogy regarding the lone woman on the major league team coalesce so cogently that i must
add my vote to place Cobb/Cobb on the list at #3.
If the blank backs would disappear, i could get some peaceful rest now.

great work T206 scholars.

Hi Brian, how's the ole tarhill buddy?

best,
barry

[FUBAR]

with only 15 known copies, does it really matter what you call it??

If you have one, do you really care?

Just do your dance of joy and wave it around and leave it at that!

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I came across some data I compiled for a couple of years of the backs I use to own. Obviously this was before my quest for the Cycle 460s. I compiled this over about a 2 year period, I probably stopped around 2007.

AB 350 No Frame-4
AB 350 Frame-6
AB 460 - 5
Broadleaf 350 - 2
Carolina Brights-2
Cycle 350-10
Cycle 460-8
EPDG-3
Hindu-6
Hindu (SL)-1
Red Hindu-1
OM-11
OM (SL)-13
Pied 150 25-85
Pied 350 25-225
Pied 460 25-30
Pied 460 42-2
Pied 350 (SL)-14
Polar Bear-24
Tolstoi-11
Sov 150-2
Sov 350-7
Sov 460-13
SC 150 25-13
SC 150 30-30
SC 150 649-6
SC 350 25-11
SC 350 30-69
SC 460 25-4
SC 460 30-6
SC 460 42 PO-6
SC 460 42-5
Uzit-1

Lee

[scottglevy]

Pop of Red Hindus.....

One of the cards on this list that I really don't have a good handle on the rarity is the Red Hindu. Would our knowledgeable panel say that it's closer to Lenox in rarity or closer to Drum/Uzit in rarity?

Regards,
Scott

[tedzan]

Jim's ranking of this back looks good enough to me. Here is my latest data on confirmed Red HINDU cards.

UPDATED 3/26/10

Possible total = 107 Subjects.....unless we find some more, I'm beginning to think that the majority of the
remaining 68 subjects are "No-Prints".

39 confirmed Red HINDU's

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (yellow portrait)...........super-print
Chase (blue)..........................super-print
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Davis (A's)
Devore
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Duffy
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-bat)................super-print
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Griffith (bat)
Hummell
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
McGraw (glove hip)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Pfeffer
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Sheckard (glove)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Tannehill (Chicago-throw)
Wheat
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Did I miss any ?

Any new inputs are appreciated.


TED Z

[tiger8mush]

Ted Z, any guesses/theories as to what will determine whether one of the 107 possible Red Hindu subjects is a "no-print"?

Rob

[sreader3]

I generally agree with Jim's list, except--like Lee--I don't think Jim has given Piedmont 42 its due.

In my experience, Piedmont 42 is at least as tough as Carolina Brights--considerably tougher than Brown Hindu, Sovereign 460, Cycle 460, etc.

A FINAL NOTE: One consideration often overlooked in these "backs" discussions is that certain backs were printed with more subjects than other backs. For example, Brown Hindu was printed with more than 100 different subjects whereas Sovereign 460 was printed with only a few dozen different subjects. Thus, putting aside for the moment the reported difficulty of finding Sovereign 460 with the six superprints, the "scarcity" of Sovereign 460 is at least partly attributable to the fact that it simply wasn't printed with very many subjects.

Consider the following hypothetical.

Assumption 1: Back X was printed in equal numbers with 50 subjects.
Assumption 2: Back Y was printed in equal numbers with 100 subjects.
Assumption 3: Back X and Back Y were printed in equal numbers.
Conclusion: It will be roughly twice has hard to find A PARTICULAR SUBJECT with Back Y as it will be to find A PARTICULAR SUBJECT with Back X.

[cfc1909]

Seems the list has questions about Cobb back and Piedmont 42.

Cobb I have never owned so I checked into it the best I could with a few collectors who do own an example and have come to the conclusion it belongs at the top of the list with 14 or 15 examples known. We were close to that amout of brown Old Mills known.

Piedmont 42 was very easy for me. I won a Cy Young off ebay soon after I became an ebay member. I also BINed a Hindu red of Magee but it took a few years of chasing the tough backs before I landed a Drum or Uzit. I guess it is each collectors expirience.

I guess I do agree P42 doesn't get its due at times but I do feel it is easier to get than Carolina Brights and American Beauty and that is because you can still pick them off ebay along with regular Piedmont backs. There was a small group of tobacco cards at this last Philly show and the guy didn't realize he had a P42 in the group.

keep in mind this list is just to obtain one example of each back

1. Ty Cobb
2. Old Mill brown
3. Lenox brown
4. Broad Leaf 460
5. Uzit
6. Drum
7. Hindu red
8. Lenox black
9. Broad Leaf 350
10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
11. Carolina Brights
12. American Beauty 460
13. Hindu brown
14. American Beauty 350 no frame
15. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
16. Cycle 460
17. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
18. Tolstoi
19. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
20. EPDG
21. American Beauty 350 frame
22. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
23. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
24. Cycle 350
25. Old Mill south
26. Sovereign 150
27. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
28. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
29. Old Mill
30. Polar Bear
31. Sovereign 350 series forest green
32. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
33. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
34. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
35. Piedmont 150 factory 25
36. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
38. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
39. Piedmont 350 factory 25

I am sure every one will not agree to this list but it is more accurate than what was being used and is a very good list for collectors to use. If you started now I feel your collecting expirience would be very close to this.

[E93]

Jim,
Thanks for the updated list and your thoughtful considerations.
JimB

[tedzan]

In my current American Beauty 460 (AB 460) thread, I describe certain "rules of thumb" for determining which T206's are found
with AB 460 backs, BROAD LEAF 460 backs, Red HINDU backs, and UZIT backs. However, these rules only apply to the cards in
the 350/460 series.


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Jim R,
a job well done.
we are very indebted to you for the efforts.
the obsolete and tainted t206 museum ranking which i still owned was shredded yesterday in celebration.
best,
barry

[sreader3]

Jim,

I think you have hit the nail on the head with Piedmont 42. It is easier to acquire than certain backs that are more plentiful because 1) buyers and sellers sometimes do not distinguish it from Piedmont 460/25 and 2) it is a mere factory variation, not a brand variation.

So, in a list of "scarcity" I think it ranks with Carolina Brights, but in a list of "acquisition difficulty" I agree with you that it ranks lower.

Scot

[bbsports]

There are more Sovereign 460 backs around than you think. A lot of sellers use the word "rare" too loosely when describing their backs & So. Leaguers. Granted, So. Leaguers are tougher to get, but not rare. Only Cycle 460 & American Beauty 460 backs are tough, not the 350 series. That also goes for the Sovereign 150 & 350 backs as well. Piedmont 42 backs out of Durham N.C., are tough as well, but because there are so many Piedmont backs out there in general, it does get the credit than it should, but someday it will.

[tedzan]

OK everyone....when is the last time you saw any of the following T206's with SOVEREIGN 460 backs ?

Chance (yellow portrait)

Chase (blue portrait)

Chase (throwing-dark cap)

Cobb (red portrait)

Evers (bat-yellow sky)

Mathewson (dark cap)


Exactly 52 cards were printed with SOVEREIGN 460 backs. Many of these are not that scarce; however, the above 6
super-prints are considerably more scarce.

For example, the Red Cobb is the most available T206 in this entire set....this card with the SOVEREIGN 460 back has
been confirmed with only 4 examples. Hey guys, that's tougher than a Joe Doyle error card (there is 8 of them) !


TED Z

[scottglevy]

The most accurate list of T206 backs in scarcity order that I've seen to date. Thanks for an amazing job Jim R.

My only criticism at this point would be the placement of P42. I'd personally move it up a few notches to around the 'hindu' or maybe just a touch tougher category.

Either way, this list will be replacing the one that I've privately kept.

[refz]

ted

chase blue port sov 460
chase blk cap sov 460

thanks to you ,, the matty and chase blk cap throwing pop up once in awhile the others are seldom seen in my opinion.

[teetwoohsix]

I was reviewing this great thread,and noticed something I missed before,which is how the Sweet Caporal 350-460 ranks in scarcity.I found it very interesting how the scarcity level varies so much based on factories.Here is JimR's scarcity list from #16 through #33,just to use as the example of what I noticed:
16.)Cycle 460
17.)Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42
18.)Tolstoi
19.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25
20.)EPDG
21.)American Beauty 350 Frame
22.)Sovereign 350 Apple Green- 350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
23.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42
24.)Cycle 350
25.)Old Mill Southern
26.)Sovereign 150
27.)Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint
28.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 Scroll
29.)Old Mill
30.)Polar Bear
31.)Sovereign 350 Series Forest Green
32.)Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25
33.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30

It was interesting for me to see that Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 was seated in between Tolstoi and EPDG,,,so I looked through my T206's,and was suprised to see that I only had one,which is Doyle batting!!

So,using the list above,it is interesting to see how the Sweet Caporal 350-460 ranks in scarcity by Factories.Here's the breakdown:
19.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25
23.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42
28.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 Scroll
33.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30

Does anyone know why this is?I guess I didn't realize the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 was that tough,but I guess it is!!

Also,another obsevation-when Lee so kindly gave us his breakdown of backs after finishing T206 (I love these breakdowns!!),out of all the cards,only three EPDG's!!!Maybe that's going in too many different directions,but really-isn't EPDG scarcer than we may think?

Sincerely,Clayton

[tedzan]

AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN,
SWEET CAPORAL are all Factory #25 (Richmond, VA) T-brands and the T206 cards associated with these
brands from 1909 to 1910 state this on their bottom line.

The American Tobacco Company was forced to divest by 1911; and, their AMERICAN BEAUTY, PIEDMONT,
and SWEET CAP cigarette production was transferred from Factory 25 to the Liggett & Myers Factory #42
in Durham, NC at the start of 1911. The BROAD LEAF 350 & 460,, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE 460, DRUM,
SWEET CAPORAL 460 (Factory #25) T206's were printed in the Fall/Winter of 1910. They are much tougher
than the other backs simply because Factory 25 cigarette production of these brands ended and the cards
associated with these brands were either Short-Printed or discarded.

For the same reason, you will note that SWEET CAPORAL 460 (Factory #30) backs do not exist for the 55
cards in the 350/460 series. They were printed, but never issued. Instead a scroll was printed over the Fac-
tory 30 line and Factory 42 was added, since these cards were shipped to the NC plant to be inserted into
Sweet Caporal cigarette packs.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks TedZ,for explaining that-now I understand it,and your help is very much appreciated!!!

Sincerely,Clayton