T206 backs in scarcity order

[caramelcard]

I think the list looks pretty good right now.

It doesn't matter much since they probably shouldn't be in there anyways, but I'd switch the blank back and the broadleaf 350s.

I've had over a dozen Broadleaf backs since 1999 and one blank back while going after and following both.

PS: I have a feeling we'll be having a blank back discussion soon.

Rob

[E93]

Can we add the Ty Cobb brand to the list? I think most people probably also consider the Coupon Type 1 to be a T206, but maybe re-designating is more controversial. I am curious to know where you think it would belong on the list.
Thanks,
JimB

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by E93

Can we add the Ty Cobb brand to the list? I think most people probably also consider the Coupon Type 1 to be a T206, but maybe re-designating is more controversial. I am curious to know where you think it would belong on the list.
Thanks,
JimB

Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features just 1 subject? Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features a glossy front surface on 85% of the known cards? Why should the Cobb back be considered a part of the T206 set? Because thats how it was categorized 70 years ago? Things change, they evolve as more info becomes available. Just remember that the same guy who called the Cobb/Cobb a T206 card, also called an Uzit an "Usit".

[E93]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features just 1 subject? Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features a glossy front surface on 85% of the known cards? Why should the Cobb back be considered a part of the T206 set? Because thats how it was categorized 70 years ago? Things change, they evolve as more info becomes available. Just remember that the same guy who called the Cobb/Cobb a T206 card, also called an Uzit an "Usit".

I suggest you read my response to your initial questions above.

In response to your questions here, Jefferson Burdick is the person who invented the classification scheme that is still used today, including the designation "T206". Nowhere does he indicate the number of subjects that need to be on the fronts of advertising backs. Nor does he indicate that a glossy front would eliminate a card from consideration. He lists all the advertising brands included with the T206 designation and the one quality they all have in common is that they all advertised American Tobacco Company products between 1909-1911. A typo on the spelling of Uzit is hardly evidence that the Ty Cobb brand should be disqualified. There was debate a few years ago about wether the Ty Cobb brand was a brand issued by the ATC and if so, when it was issued. That debate was resolved last year with period newspaper articles and other evidence that Ted Z produced about a period collection. FYI, the recent find of two new examples also appeared within a larger period collection of T206s.

If you want to change the classification system and establish your own criteria for designation, more power to you. If it is convincing enough, I am sure the collecting world will follow you. You should use a term other than "T206" however because T206 includes brands like Ty Cobb and American Beauty that have physical qualities that differ from the other brands in most cases. And you might want to consider the exclusion of Polar Bear since that was the only brand where the cards were placed with loose tobacco as opposed to cigarettes.
JimB

[E93]

Let me give another example to explain the reasoning. Let's assume one woman made it into the major leagues. Generally speaking, the classification category of Major League ball players only includes men, but there is a single example of a woman in that category now. Why? Because the criteria is simply that one plays in the major leagues. Having different biological characteristics was never a criteria for determining wether or not somebody was a major league ballplayer. One can make a new category of major league ball players with male organs, but that does not change the old category.

Likewise, if one wants to make a new category for tobacco cards that includes all white bordered ATC cards with baseball fronts produced between 1909-1911 and advertising ATC brands, but excluding those for which 85% of known copies have a glossy front or for which the brand only has one front, that is fine. But it is not "T206".

By the way, the glossy front that bothers you so much begs the question of why 20% of them do NOT have a glossy front. Perhaps they started without it and then ATC decided to make the cards for this limited edition specialty brand special and added the gloss. WHo knows? Would that eliminate it? I don't think so.
JimB

[cfc1909]

I will admitt-the Cobb card kills me-mainly because I do not own one...

the card would only be challenged by brown Lenox or brown Old Mill-all three are close in total number of cards known. I am not sure if it is a 206 but I would love to have it in my 206 collection.

I mainly got rid of it because I am not sure and also because Chan included and put it at the top of the list along with his creations to create a market for
his creations. If he put them right under Cobb/Cobb so they would be worth Cobb money and he would benifit from it greatly and did.
Another reason I didn't include it is because it only has one front-I am just not sure.


Lee-you have to look for Pied 42 and Sweet Cap 460-25-I picked at least 20 examples each off of ebay. It seems you picked up 3 each without looking for them. It is each collectors expirience-I just feel I needed to post it and tried to make it as accurate as possible.
Seems it is closer than what was being used

Now we might need a place here for it to be referanced and used by all 206 collectors and mainly by beginners-so they are not being Channed-I mean scammed.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Hi Jim I agree it does need to be posted some where (Old Cardboard?)

What is the reasoning behind the AB 350 no Frame being so tough. I would buy AB's with and did not worry about the frame or no frame and have at an equal amount of both.

Lee

[cfc1909]

I always felt AB 350 no frame was tougher because they were only printed on the 350-460 subject cards-66 I think and AB 350 frame is in the 350 series with over 200 possibilities.

[scottglevy]

Pop of Red Hindus.....

One of the cards on this list that I really don't have a good handle on the rarity is the Red Hindu. Would our knowledgeable panel say that it's closer to Lenox in rarity or closer to Drum/Uzit in rarity?

Regards,
Scott

[tedzan]

Jim's ranking of this back looks good enough to me. Here is my latest data on confirmed Red HINDU cards.

UPDATED 3/26/10

Possible total = 107 Subjects.....unless we find some more, I'm beginning to think that the majority of the
remaining 68 subjects are "No-Prints".

39 confirmed Red HINDU's

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (yellow portrait)...........super-print
Chase (blue)..........................super-print
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Davis (A's)
Devore
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Duffy
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-bat)................super-print
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Griffith (bat)
Hummell
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
McGraw (glove hip)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Pfeffer
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Sheckard (glove)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Tannehill (Chicago-throw)
Wheat
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Did I miss any ?

Any new inputs are appreciated.


TED Z

[tiger8mush]

Ted Z, any guesses/theories as to what will determine whether one of the 107 possible Red Hindu subjects is a "no-print"?

Rob

[sreader3]

I generally agree with Jim's list, except--like Lee--I don't think Jim has given Piedmont 42 its due.

In my experience, Piedmont 42 is at least as tough as Carolina Brights--considerably tougher than Brown Hindu, Sovereign 460, Cycle 460, etc.

A FINAL NOTE: One consideration often overlooked in these "backs" discussions is that certain backs were printed with more subjects than other backs. For example, Brown Hindu was printed with more than 100 different subjects whereas Sovereign 460 was printed with only a few dozen different subjects. Thus, putting aside for the moment the reported difficulty of finding Sovereign 460 with the six superprints, the "scarcity" of Sovereign 460 is at least partly attributable to the fact that it simply wasn't printed with very many subjects.

Consider the following hypothetical.

Assumption 1: Back X was printed in equal numbers with 50 subjects.
Assumption 2: Back Y was printed in equal numbers with 100 subjects.
Assumption 3: Back X and Back Y were printed in equal numbers.
Conclusion: It will be roughly twice has hard to find A PARTICULAR SUBJECT with Back Y as it will be to find A PARTICULAR SUBJECT with Back X.

[cfc1909]

Seems the list has questions about Cobb back and Piedmont 42.

Cobb I have never owned so I checked into it the best I could with a few collectors who do own an example and have come to the conclusion it belongs at the top of the list with 14 or 15 examples known. We were close to that amout of brown Old Mills known.

Piedmont 42 was very easy for me. I won a Cy Young off ebay soon after I became an ebay member. I also BINed a Hindu red of Magee but it took a few years of chasing the tough backs before I landed a Drum or Uzit. I guess it is each collectors expirience.

I guess I do agree P42 doesn't get its due at times but I do feel it is easier to get than Carolina Brights and American Beauty and that is because you can still pick them off ebay along with regular Piedmont backs. There was a small group of tobacco cards at this last Philly show and the guy didn't realize he had a P42 in the group.

keep in mind this list is just to obtain one example of each back

1. Ty Cobb
2. Old Mill brown
3. Lenox brown
4. Broad Leaf 460
5. Uzit
6. Drum
7. Hindu red
8. Lenox black
9. Broad Leaf 350
10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
11. Carolina Brights
12. American Beauty 460
13. Hindu brown
14. American Beauty 350 no frame
15. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
16. Cycle 460
17. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
18. Tolstoi
19. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
20. EPDG
21. American Beauty 350 frame
22. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
23. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
24. Cycle 350
25. Old Mill south
26. Sovereign 150
27. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
28. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
29. Old Mill
30. Polar Bear
31. Sovereign 350 series forest green
32. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
33. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
34. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
35. Piedmont 150 factory 25
36. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
38. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
39. Piedmont 350 factory 25

I am sure every one will not agree to this list but it is more accurate than what was being used and is a very good list for collectors to use. If you started now I feel your collecting expirience would be very close to this.

[E93]

Jim,
Thanks for the updated list and your thoughtful considerations.
JimB

[tedzan]

In the final defense of my position regarding AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 scarcity.....I agree with Jim R in that if you
are just looking for a "Type Back", certain AB 460 cards might not be as tough as, say a given BROAD LEAF 350.

And this is true, if any AB 460 will do. The following AB 460 cards are quite often seen......

Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
McGraw (glove at hip)
Tannehill (Chicago)


Most of the other 70 - AB 460 cards are seldom seen, here are some of them......

Conroy (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)


Therefore, if you are trying to collect this sub-set of 73-77 cards, I can guarantee you that it will be a challenge
that will continue for many years.

Hey guys, am I the only one here (besides Lee B) that collects these various T206 sub-sets ?


TED Z

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

A couple other observations about the list. I do believe the Piedmont Fact 42 is tougher than the Cycle 460. I learned early on how to spot a Pied 42 and I was only able to accumulate 3 in my quest of the T206 set. The other back I think is severely is the SC 460 25. When I finished I had only 3 in my collection, I really believe they may be tougher than Cycle 460.

Jim's observations are correct about finding single examples of Cycle, ABs and others. Sometimes it is easy to find a single example but to find certain examples can be very difficult.

I wanted to add my adjustments:

11. Hindu
12. Pied 42
13- 15. Cycle, AB and Sov in any order
16. Sweet cap 460 25
17. AB 350 NO Frame

Lee

[ullmandds]

cobb/cobb would be #3...if it were a t206...and I'd place coupon I's at 7 or 8.