T206 backs in scarcity order

scottglevy · #1 03-24-2010, 08:37 AM

Jim,

I think that this is the best (most accurate) listing of back types. I agree with everything that has been written with one significant exception. I do not believe that AB 460 is nearly as tough as you rank it. Back in the 1980s when my dad and I purchased significant lots (or even entire sets) of T206 cards and before people really cared much about backs, we would always find at least one (many times 2 or 3) AB 460 in the collection. While we would also find at least one hindu (usually more).... other cards like CB and certainly Broadleaf were not always part of the collection.

My opinion based solely on my personal collecting experience is that AB 460 should appear as rarer than Hindu but not as rare as CB.

Regards,
Scott

cfc1909 · #2 03-24-2010, 09:11 AM

Ted

I think Lee and Scott are right on AB 460-I think you are looking at it as trying to complete the AB 460 sub set rather than just getting an example of AB 460. It surely is more difficult to get 60 or more different examples of AB 460 or Cycle 460 than it is to get an example to complete your back set.

1. Old Mill brown
2. Lenox brown
3. Broad Leaf 460
4. Uzit
5. Drum
6. Hindu red
7. Lenox black
8. Broad Leaf 350
9. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
10. Carolina Brights
11. American Beauty 460
12. Hindu brown
13. American Beauty 350 no frame
14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
15. Cycle 460
16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
17. Tolstoi
18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
19. EPDG
20. American Beauty 350 frame
21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
23. Cycle 350
24. Old Mill south
25. Sovereign 150
26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
28. Old Mill
29. Polar Bear
30. Sovereign 350 series forest green
31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
34. Piedmont 150 factory 25
35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
38. Piedmont 350 factory 25

either way AB 460 is tough and it is only moving between 8 and 11 and that is pretty close as each collectors expierence is different.

Chicago206 · #3 03-24-2010, 09:14 AM

FWIW, I was able to snag a very pretty AB460 in a SGC 50 off ebay as a BIN for $125 about a month ago. You will NEVER see a BL350 in that grade sell for anywhere close to $125. BL350 is tougher than AB460.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250583328186

caramelcard · #4 03-24-2010, 11:01 AM

I think the list looks pretty good right now.

It doesn't matter much since they probably shouldn't be in there anyways, but I'd switch the blank back and the broadleaf 350s.

I've had over a dozen Broadleaf backs since 1999 and one blank back while going after and following both.

PS: I have a feeling we'll be having a blank back discussion soon.

Rob

E93 · #5 03-24-2010, 11:41 AM

Can we add the Ty Cobb brand to the list? I think most people probably also consider the Coupon Type 1 to be a T206, but maybe re-designating is more controversial. I am curious to know where you think it would belong on the list.
Thanks,
JimB

Chicago206 · #6 03-24-2010, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E93

Can we add the Ty Cobb brand to the list? I think most people probably also consider the Coupon Type 1 to be a T206, but maybe re-designating is more controversial. I am curious to know where you think it would belong on the list.
Thanks,
JimB

Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features just 1 subject? Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features a glossy front surface on 85% of the known cards? Why should the Cobb back be considered a part of the T206 set? Because thats how it was categorized 70 years ago? Things change, they evolve as more info becomes available. Just remember that the same guy who called the Cobb/Cobb a T206 card, also called an Uzit an "Usit".

E93 · #7 03-24-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features just 1 subject? Can you name a single T206 cigarette brand that features a glossy front surface on 85% of the known cards? Why should the Cobb back be considered a part of the T206 set? Because thats how it was categorized 70 years ago? Things change, they evolve as more info becomes available. Just remember that the same guy who called the Cobb/Cobb a T206 card, also called an Uzit an "Usit".

I suggest you read my response to your initial questions above.

In response to your questions here, Jefferson Burdick is the person who invented the classification scheme that is still used today, including the designation "T206". Nowhere does he indicate the number of subjects that need to be on the fronts of advertising backs. Nor does he indicate that a glossy front would eliminate a card from consideration. He lists all the advertising brands included with the T206 designation and the one quality they all have in common is that they all advertised American Tobacco Company products between 1909-1911. A typo on the spelling of Uzit is hardly evidence that the Ty Cobb brand should be disqualified. There was debate a few years ago about wether the Ty Cobb brand was a brand issued by the ATC and if so, when it was issued. That debate was resolved last year with period newspaper articles and other evidence that Ted Z produced about a period collection. FYI, the recent find of two new examples also appeared within a larger period collection of T206s.

If you want to change the classification system and establish your own criteria for designation, more power to you. If it is convincing enough, I am sure the collecting world will follow you. You should use a term other than "T206" however because T206 includes brands like Ty Cobb and American Beauty that have physical qualities that differ from the other brands in most cases. And you might want to consider the exclusion of Polar Bear since that was the only brand where the cards were placed with loose tobacco as opposed to cigarettes.
JimB

tedzan · #8 03-24-2010, 01:21 PM

In the final defense of my position regarding AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 scarcity.....I agree with Jim R in that if you
are just looking for a "Type Back", certain AB 460 cards might not be as tough as, say a given BROAD LEAF 350.

And this is true, if any AB 460 will do. The following AB 460 cards are quite often seen......

Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
McGraw (glove at hip)
Tannehill (Chicago)

Most of the other 70 - AB 460 cards are seldom seen, here are some of them......

Conroy (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)

Therefore, if you are trying to collect this sub-set of 73-77 cards, I can guarantee you that it will be a challenge
that will continue for many years.

Hey guys, am I the only one here (besides Lee B) that collects these various T206 sub-sets ?

TED Z

Sterling Sports Auctions · #9 03-24-2010, 11:42 AM

A couple other observations about the list. I do believe the Piedmont Fact 42 is tougher than the Cycle 460. I learned early on how to spot a Pied 42 and I was only able to accumulate 3 in my quest of the T206 set. The other back I think is severely is the SC 460 25. When I finished I had only 3 in my collection, I really believe they may be tougher than Cycle 460.

Jim's observations are correct about finding single examples of Cycle, ABs and others. Sometimes it is easy to find a single example but to find certain examples can be very difficult.

I wanted to add my adjustments:

11. Hindu
12. Pied 42
13- 15. Cycle, AB and Sov in any order
16. Sweet cap 460 25
17. AB 350 NO Frame

Lee

ullmandds · #10 03-24-2010, 12:09 PM

cobb/cobb would be #3...if it were a t206...and I'd place coupon I's at 7 or 8.

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