T206 production/printing questions/comments

[Jantz]

Based on visual evidence alone, I believe neither the fronts nor the backs were printed first. Maybe when the print run began in 1909, yes one side or the other was printed first, but as the print run progressed and more tobacco brands were added, I think they were printed according to what was needed.

I believe this because some printing mishaps are back specific and some are not. Here are two examples:

1. The Lundgren recently found by Jamie (Blunder19) appears to be a back specific printing mishap - Piedmont 150 Fac.25. Three board members posted that their cards all had this same back. So in this case, I guess one could say that the backs were printed first. This also applies to other printing mishaps in this set as well.

2. The Murr'y printing mishap on the other hand, appears to be a non-specific back mishap since it is found with 4 different backs - Lenox, Sweet Caporal 460, Piedmont 460 and Tolstoi. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't the Tolstoi brand appear in 1910 and the Lenox brand didn't appear until 1911. I'm going with what I read in "the Monster", but it looks to me that this printing mishap jumped from one print series to the next, which could make one think that the fronts were printed first and the sheets were stored until later needed and then the back advertisements were added.


I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in whatever they believe about the printing process of this set, I'm just pointing out some of the small discoveries that I've made since collecting these cards.

Jantz

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Based on visual evidence alone, I believe neither the fronts nor the backs were printed first. Maybe when the print run began in 1909, yes one side or the other was printed first, but as the print run progressed and more tobacco brands were added, I think they were printed according to what was needed.

I agree completely.

I have to believe the cards were produced in the least expensive, most efficient way possible. Which would mean different methods depending on what was best that hour, that day, or at the time.

[sreader3]

Hi Robert,

I recommend that you download the most recent edition of Inside T206 from Old Cardboard (it's free), which states that the factory designation on the back of T206 cards identifies the factory from which the cards were distributed, not the factory at which the cards were produced.

I view all writing as an experiment, and I did my best to correct errors in my initial manuscript as they came to my attention.

Scot

[caramelcard]

Gotcha, Thanks Scot. I'll download the more current version.
Thanks for your hard work on the project. It's very helpful.


And thanks Ted for putting up with the repetition. I know you've hashed a lot of this stuff out before.

Rob

[teetwoohsix]

First off,my apologies for bringing up a subject that has "been beat to death",but after reading this thread over and over,as well as searching the archives on American Lithographic,I still seem to have the same questions that Robert asked about in his original post.

Refering to post #22: "The plants are quite generally equiped with machinery for cutting,folding,labeling,printing,and filling packages of this description".

Printing what? This really makes me wonder about the printing of the backs.I completely understand ALC printed the tobacco cards-but are we really so sure about the backs?

Leon's Mullaney/Young sure does make you think all of the printing was done at the ALC,but does it exclude all possibility that the backs could have been printed elsewhere?What does the portion of the letter in post#22 that I quoted above mean?What were they printing?

Since the backs are only printed in one color,would it be too far fetched to think the factories may have printed the backs on these cards?

Another interesting thing I've noticed,is a few things in Mr.Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards Volume 3...........

T206 (page 55, under Color Varieties)
"In a set as wide in scope as T206 there are an endless amount of color variations.Printed in a variety of places,printing errors,freaks,and the like were bound to occur,and they did".

T202 Triple Folders (page 31)
"The cards are known with black and red printing on the backs.Not commonly known is that different factories caused this.All the red back varieties were produced at Factory No.30 and all the black printed backs came from Factory No.649".

T212 Obaks (page 77)
"All were printed by the same factory in the 1st District of California as the back of any card will indicate". Note*I am well aware the ALC didn't print these cards.

T201 Mecca Baseball Folder Series (page 28)
"T201's were printed with two different factories on the back of the card.At the bottom of the rear of the card can be found "Factory No.649 1st Dist N.Y." or "Factory No.30 2nd. Dist. N.Y.".Forty-Nine of the cards were printed at both places,the "Dougherty-Lord" card will only be found with "Factory 649".

Could Mr.Lipset have been refering to the printing of the "backs" of the cards in all of the examples I just quoted?Just curious-TedZ,please don't get frustrated with me on this,I have been trying to convince myself about the ALC printing the backs of these tobacco cards,and I have,after scouring the archives,not been convinced.

Sincerely,Clayton

[teetwoohsix]

Yeah, I bumped a thread from 2010

As you can see, I think I killed the thread so I'm trying to bring it back to life.
I am still not completely convinced that some of the factories didn't (*possibly*) play a part in some of the print runs of the ~back adds~.

Post #22 of this thread shows the factories did have printing equiptment. Plus, as you can see from my last post in this thread, there are many places to find information of people pointing to "some type of printing" going on at the factories.

Could this be why we see "miscut backs" with well centered fronts? I know Leon's masterpiece is an indicator that the ALC did print both fronts and backs, that makes all of the sense in the world (in the begining) but towards the halfway point (say 1910) couldn't they have tried to streamline things, and have some of the factories start printing the backs? Note some of the 1909 Piedmont backs are printed dark bold blue, and quite a few of the 350 series Piedmont seem a bit "lighter"in some cases- and, the 350-460 Piedmonts display an even "lighter" blue ink.

I'm just throwing this out there again, not saying I'm right, but should we take another look at this?

It seems to me it would make financial sense to pre print the fronts, ship them to the factories for the back printing, cut them and insert them into the packaging. It appears they had the printing equiptment and it was a simple one color pass. It also seems it wouldmake sense as to why they only used "one color" to print the backs instead of , say, two or three colors (for a more "vibrant" tobacco add........

Any takers?

Sincerely, Clayton

[jrlebert]

As a relative newbie (a few years now) to collecting vintage, namely tobacco cards, would someone (or ones, plural) mind telling me what the best resources are, be it books, online articles, etc. to read up on all things T-206?

I would like to be better versed on the subject, and would to be pointed in the right direction.

I know of two websites, t-206.org and t206resource.com, but other than that, I am open to anything. I know of other books, just not if they are solid sources of info.

Any help would be much appreciated!

If this is not the right place to ask, please PM me and let me know where the best place would be. Thanks!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Yeah, I bumped a thread from 2010

As you can see, I think I killed the thread so I'm trying to bring it back to life.
I am still not completely convinced that some of the factories didn't (*possibly*) play a part in some of the print runs of the ~back adds~.

It seems to me it would make financial sense to pre print the fronts, ship them to the factories for the back printing, cut them and insert them into the packaging. It appears they had the printing equiptment and it was a simple one color pass. It also seems it wouldmake sense as to why they only used "one color" to print the backs instead of , say, two or three colors (for a more "vibrant" tobacco add........

Any takers?

Sincerely, Clayton

With all due repect Clayton...... we have re-hashed this subject many times. The cards were printed at American Lithographic. First the fronts, then the backs. The jobber
would then cut the sheets down to individual cards and he would ship them to the various Tobacco Factory's.

We have a well-known American Lithographic ledger document (dated Feb. 1911) that shows us completed cards (front & back) and instructs how the T206's & T80's were
to be inserted in the UZIT and LENOX cigarette packs at Factory #30.

Furthermore, there are many other examples, such as WET-SHEET imprints of backs on fronts, printer's test proofs with non-sports fronts on T206 backs, etc., etc.
And, one of the best examples is Leon's Mullaney with several overprints. Hey Leon....it's time to show your wild looking T206 again.


UZIT pack
. .

. .


LENOX pack


.



TED Z