T206 production/printing questions/comments

[caramelcard]

Question for Scot Reader when you get some time:

Can you explain what you mean by this statement from your T206 study?

"The backs of most T206 cards identify the factory where they were produced."

Thanks!

Rob

[caramelcard]

Why would you find more cards with a blank back rather than a blank front?

My opinion:

Because folks would still want to keep a piece of cardboard that still had a baseball player on it.

I don't believe folks would want something with only a tobacco advertisement on it and most were probably not taken home as scrap if they were blank fronts.

[tedzan]

Regarding your question......
" Ted, I'm familiar with T80s. How does this indicate the backs were printed at the ALC? "

We have seen several 460 series T206's (Ford is one card that comes to mind) whose fronts & backs (that are multi-
printed scrap) with T80's images printed on them.

Tell me Rob, why are you such a skeptic of American Litho. printing all the T-cards from 1909-1919 (except T216's) ?

Speaking about T216's, they were printed (most likely in Philadelphia) by the same printing firm that produced most of
the Caramel cards. Do you you doubt this, too ? ?


Regards,

TED Z

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

First, thanks for the info on the Ford card. I wasn't aware there was a T80 back printed over a T206 front.

I'm not suggesting that all the fronts of the T cards were not printed at the ALC.

I'm also not suggesting that each tobacco co. (piedmont, sweet cap, etc.) printed their own backs.

I'm suggesting that it's possible that the backs were printed at a different facility.

I do believe the all or most of the backs were printed at the same facility. When we look at cards like Leon's scrap, we see Old Mill over EPDG over Piedmont, but those are all VA distributed cards.

I agree that it would make financial sense for the ALC to print both and that it's a strong possibility. I just wanted to see what evidence we had if any.

I still don't understand the overstikes.

With an issue like T209 color, it seems to me that the actual distribution factory stamped their own fa. number on the cards and not the printing factory.

With other caramel and bread issues, we see anonymous and blank backs being produced and stamps and printings applied when the cards arrive in the distribution region. So, it's possible.

Rob

[toppcat]

I wanted you to post your multiback T206 I think it is one of the better visual keys to understanding the printing of the cards.

[tedzan]

Regarding Leon's famous multi-overprint scrap, Old Mill and Piedmont are VA Factory # 25....while EPDG is VA Factory # 17......major difference.

This might seem trivial, but trust me it isn't, as the Federal Tobacco Laws back then regulated these various factory's. So, if one was to think that
backs were printed at the various factories, Leon's card certainly discredits that idea.

Further evidence of American Litho. (ALC) printing the majority of T-cards (BB and Non-Sports) during the 1909-1919 era, is the ALC letter (dated
March 1911) that instructs that one BB (T206) and one T80 (Militarymen) be inserted in LENOX, TOLSTOI and UZIT cigarette packs.




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Finally, there are 2 overwhelming factors that support my contention that all the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) brand premiums were printed at ALC.

(1) James B. Duke of ATC and Joseph Knapp, founder of ALC, were very close friends and business partners.

(2) ALC was the foremost lithographic company in America in the late 19th and early 20th Century.


TED Z

[jimonym]

Here's a scan of the T206 Ford card Ted mentioned. It has a double-struck Tolstoi back (Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY) and the pink ink layer from the T68 Heroes of History set (Irish Patriot Robert Emmett, and, above him, the decorative aiguillette from the uniform of General Custer).

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

You made some good points. Thank you.

Again, I'm not suggesting that these card backs were printed at the different factories, just that it's possible the backs were printed at a different shop than that of the ALC.

Why would the letter instruct ALC to insert the cards into the packs? I thought the insertion into the packs happened at the tobacco factories.

As far as James Duke, I'm a nonsports collector and follow a lot of the Duke issues. He had issues where he used other lithography companies. Duke had a lot of friends.

Duke issues also used:

Giles Company out of NY.
Geo Harris and Sons out of Phila.
Donaldson Brothers, NY.
Schumaker and Ettinger, NY

And more. This was at the same time that he was using Knapp's services which at the time was called Knapp & Co.

Rob

[jimonym]

I was generally of the persuasion that the card backs were printed by ALC, but after coming across this passage I am now of two minds. It is from the Report of the Commissioner of Corporations on the Tobacco Industry, Part 1 (1909) pages 263-264 (I pasted the passages together for easier reading).

The text is general in its description, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility that since much of the paper packaging was being printed at the tobacco manufacturing facility that the card backs may have been printed there as well.

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Rob,
Duke wasn't using Knapps services.... He helped him form the ALC and was most likely the silent partner....

Be well Brian

[tedzan]

Regarding your......

1st....."Again, I'm not suggesting that these card backs were printed at the different factories, just that it's possible the backs were
printed at a different shop than that of the ALC. "

Again, recall Leon's Mullaney scrap card with at least two different Factory backs printed on it. Please explain how this occurred if it
wasn't printed at ALC ?
Are you suggesting it was printed at two different Factory's ? ?

2nd....." As far as James Duke, I'm a nonsports collector and follow a lot of the Duke issues. He had issues where he used other litho-
graphy companies. Duke had a lot of friends.

Duke issues also used:

Giles Company out of NY.
Geo Harris and Sons out of Phila.
Donaldson Brothers, NY.
Schumaker and Ettinger, NY "

These were great lithographic firms in the late 19th Century. By 1902 ALC had bought most of them (with the financial backing of Duke).
I, too, have many Non-sports cards from some of these firms. The Geo. Harris & Sons Litho. Co. was exceptionally good. They produced
my favorite set of cards....the 1888 N162's and the fabulous A36 (Goodwin Champions) album.

3rd....." Why would the letter instruct ALC to insert the cards into the packs? I thought the insertion into the packs happened at the
tobacco factories. "

By the Spring of 1911, ALC was running out of their T206 stock. They were beginning to produce their Gold-Bordered cards (T80's, T205's,
etc.). So, we can safely assume that they were suggesting that Factory # 30 pair off the remaning T206's with the newly printed T80's
in their LENOX and UZIT cigarette packs.


TED Z