T206 production/printing questions/comments

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by tedzan

But, you're our resident printer, isn't it common sense that the ONE color process that T206 backs are was printed first ?

Then, the more complex 6-color process in printing the fronts followed....on the pre-printed sheets (with backs) ? ?


TED Z

Ted....

looking at the overall product - (the cards).......
I would say no.

Since the Fronts are common (to a variety of backs) -
I would think it more logical to print the fronts...... and then as you need certain quantities for certain backs, you back up those sheets with the backs.

As far as what is the more difficult part - yes.... the fronts had to be more difficult / but they still had to get done - so I don't see the difficulty as a determining factor as to what went first.

But.... if the pressman had the press setup and running for 'backs' and ran out of front sheets to back up.... precisely because of potential difficulty - I could see the pressman continue to run backs on virgin stock (especially knowing the size of the overall order / more cards would be needed).

Also....
No doubt these cards were printed over multiple press runs, spanning days, weeks, or months, and you could very easily have had it run on many presses at one time (meaning different pressman / different machinery / all in the same shop).

To a point made earlier:
As far as why you may find more cards that have a blank back (as opposed to those that have a blank front).....

In general, I think it more unlikely that a cutter would cut down a sheet of just backs. Realize after the press run - there are other processes - and other eyes and hands that go over the product. I could see someone cutting down sheets of just fronts (for themselves or others) - but I have no idea why sheets of backs would be cut down and saved.

[caramelcard]

"We have shown many multi-back printings (T206 and Militarymen scrap) that unquestionably indicates that all these cards were printed in New York at ALC from 1909 to 1919."

Ted, I'm familiar with T80s. How does this indicate the backs were printed at the ALC?

[caramelcard]

Question for Scot Reader when you get some time:

Can you explain what you mean by this statement from your T206 study?

"The backs of most T206 cards identify the factory where they were produced."

Thanks!

Rob

[caramelcard]

Why would you find more cards with a blank back rather than a blank front?

My opinion:

Because folks would still want to keep a piece of cardboard that still had a baseball player on it.

I don't believe folks would want something with only a tobacco advertisement on it and most were probably not taken home as scrap if they were blank fronts.

[tedzan]

Regarding your question......
" Ted, I'm familiar with T80s. How does this indicate the backs were printed at the ALC? "

We have seen several 460 series T206's (Ford is one card that comes to mind) whose fronts & backs (that are multi-
printed scrap) with T80's images printed on them.

Tell me Rob, why are you such a skeptic of American Litho. printing all the T-cards from 1909-1919 (except T216's) ?

Speaking about T216's, they were printed (most likely in Philadelphia) by the same printing firm that produced most of
the Caramel cards. Do you you doubt this, too ? ?


Regards,

TED Z

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

First, thanks for the info on the Ford card. I wasn't aware there was a T80 back printed over a T206 front.

I'm not suggesting that all the fronts of the T cards were not printed at the ALC.

I'm also not suggesting that each tobacco co. (piedmont, sweet cap, etc.) printed their own backs.

I'm suggesting that it's possible that the backs were printed at a different facility.

I do believe the all or most of the backs were printed at the same facility. When we look at cards like Leon's scrap, we see Old Mill over EPDG over Piedmont, but those are all VA distributed cards.

I agree that it would make financial sense for the ALC to print both and that it's a strong possibility. I just wanted to see what evidence we had if any.

I still don't understand the overstikes.

With an issue like T209 color, it seems to me that the actual distribution factory stamped their own fa. number on the cards and not the printing factory.

With other caramel and bread issues, we see anonymous and blank backs being produced and stamps and printings applied when the cards arrive in the distribution region. So, it's possible.

Rob

[toppcat]

I wanted you to post your multiback T206 I think it is one of the better visual keys to understanding the printing of the cards.

[tedzan]

Regarding Leon's famous multi-overprint scrap, Old Mill and Piedmont are VA Factory # 25....while EPDG is VA Factory # 17......major difference.

This might seem trivial, but trust me it isn't, as the Federal Tobacco Laws back then regulated these various factory's. So, if one was to think that
backs were printed at the various factories, Leon's card certainly discredits that idea.

Further evidence of American Litho. (ALC) printing the majority of T-cards (BB and Non-Sports) during the 1909-1919 era, is the ALC letter (dated
March 1911) that instructs that one BB (T206) and one T80 (Militarymen) be inserted in LENOX, TOLSTOI and UZIT cigarette packs.




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Finally, there are 2 overwhelming factors that support my contention that all the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) brand premiums were printed at ALC.

(1) James B. Duke of ATC and Joseph Knapp, founder of ALC, were very close friends and business partners.

(2) ALC was the foremost lithographic company in America in the late 19th and early 20th Century.


TED Z