T215 (Red Cross) issue mystery....can anyone explain ?

[FrankWakefield]

What Kevin said is the deal.

Mr. Lipset describes the Red Cross cards as being from Louisiana. He mentions the New Jersey factory designation, and notes that that has nothing to do with where the cards "are" actually found. Seems that would be a "were" in the present times. Thanks to card shows, dealers, and the internet, cards are no longer solely found where they were distributed. The last ZeeNut I bought did not come to me from someone in California... Ball cards have become migratory little rascals...

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
great detective work, as always!
i've been reading through Burdick's ACC again and again, seeking some narrative that might illuminate this enigma a bit.
The best i can come up with is in section 6 of 20th Century U.S. Tobacco Insert Cards: "Many were distributed in only one area of the country,such as
the Pacific Coast issues of Obaks,Sultans, Grand Duke, Imperiales, Kopec, Pets, and Mono. In Louisiana were Coupon, Red Sun, Kotton, Victory, and
Mino. "
No mention of Red Cross in Louisiana.
I think Frank has it when he says colloquially yet poignantly:
'Ball cards have become migratory little rascals.....'
We imputed Louisiana to New Jersey and imputed it over and over again 'til
we finally believed it without question or even noticing, until now.
And Burdick in his always pithy 'narrative' knew it all along.

best,
barry

[tedzan]

Thanks, I appreciate your responses......but, I also appreciate the significance of the Factory system of the American Tobacco Co.
Coupon, Red Sun, and Victory Cigarettes were produced in Factory #3, or #8 (Victory brand)....District of Louisiana.

The T216 cigarettes were not part of ATC, they were a British product (also, the T216 cards were printed by American Caramel).





Therefore, if Red Cross cards were found in Louisiana, they most likely "migrated" (I like that, Frank) by some Northeast guy(s), who
moved to the Bayou country.
Either a retiree, or some one disgruntled by the excessive Joisey taxes (even back then)

Incidently, do we know of any Red Cross finds in the Northeast ?


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I've known Lew Lipset since 1981 and have great respect for his knowledge and contributions to the hobby.
Having said all that and having enjoyed some very nice vintage card deals that I have acquired from Lew, I
question his "Louisiana issue" regarding the Red Cross cards.

In my time, I have been fortunate to acquire 5 "original finds" of which only one of them did not "migrate"....
A 400+ T206 collection (all PIEDMONT) from South Carolina.

The other 4 were collections that did "migrate" are........

286 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Erie, PA

177 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Hartford, CT

122 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Georgia

200+ assorted SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 30, NY) T206's from Florida

Obviously, the SOVEREIGN's are Factory #25, VA....and, I offer these examples as an argument opposing the
T215's classified as a "Louisiana issue".....perhaps, based on one find (or two).

Your thoughts, please ?


TED Z

[toppcat]

Can't somebody that knows him just e-mail or phone Lipset? It sounds to me like he made a mistake is all but who knows (other than Lew)?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Can't somebody that knows him just e-mail or phone Lipset? It sounds to me like he made a mistake is all but who knows (other than Lew)?

Great idea. I know Lew, a little. I like him. I will NOT be calling him to tell him he made a mistake.

[drdduet]

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. . . . =='i=-- "j~~"] -+ Best bread flour per sack 1.90 i_i_!
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From a newspaper advertisement from Michigan in 1917.

[drdduet]

As in a previous thread, research revealed that Mr. Burdick in the ACC, Lipset in his encyclopedia, and The Standard Catalog all refer to the issue as being a Louisiana regional issue. Burdick does it in his introduction to tobacco cards, if I remember correctly, as well as in his classification scheme.

Hobby history tells us this, but why? Is there evidence/documentation of the Louisiana finds of Red Cross? or is it hobby lore? Do any of you recollect a find in Louisiana?

Interesting.

[drdduet]

1901: Strong anti-cigarette activity in 43 of the 45 states.
"[O]nly Wyoming and Louisiana had paid no attention to the cigarette controversy, while
the other forty-three states either already had anti-cigarette laws on the books, were
considering new or tougher anti-cigarette laws, or were the scenes of heavy anti- cigarette
activity" (Dillow, 1981:10).

1909: 15 states have passed legislation banning the sale of cigarettes.

1910: Because of the heavy use of the inexpensive cigarette by immigrants, New York accounts
for 25% of all cigarette sales.

1911: BUSINESS: THE INDUSTRY IN 1911:
Duke's American Tobacco Co. controls 92% of the world's tobacco business.
Leading National Brand: Fatima, (first popular brand to be sold in 20-unit packs; 15 cents) from Liggett & Myers, a Turkish/domestic blend. Most popular in Eastern urban areas. Other Turkish/domesitc competitors: Omar (ATC); Zubelda (Lorillard); Even the straight domestic brands were seasoned with a sprinkling of Turkish, like Sweet Caporals (originally made for F.S. Kinney and later for American Tobacco)
Leading Brand in Southeast: Piedmont, an all-Bright leaf brand.
Leading Brand in New Orleans: Home Run, (5 cents for 20) an all-Burley leaf brand.

During the early years, cigarette advertising was more sophisticated than many imagine.
The American Tobacco Company advertised aggressively and contributed to the rapid rise
in cigarette smoking. Advertising was commonly in print or at point of sale, especially with
sophisticated window displays made up of empty packages. Barns visible from rail lines
had advertising painted on them; fences were plastered with large posters; and billboards
and streetcars were used to advertise products. Associating a brand with special events was
another technique. For example, Pall Mall, a cigarette for the elite, was promoted in concert
and gala programs. Another promotional technique was the use of stunts, such as the
Red Cross tobacco brand — yes, Red Cross — in 1903 sponsoring a person dressed up as
a Red Cross package crossing Quebec’s Montmorency waterfalls on a high wire, an event
witnessed by a reported 30 000 people. The package featured the international Red Cross
symbol: a red cross on a white background. Red Cross was one of the most heavily advertised
brands in Canada. Other promotional activities included parades on city streets, balloon
ascents, and parachute drops.

Just some tidbits to maybe get some leads... I find it interesting that a Google search of "Red Cross Tobacco" gets many hits from Canadian articles, including a 1915 article from a Montreal newspaper explaining that the Red Cross won a court battle and Red Cross tobacco brand changed its name to Blue Cross.