T215 (Red Cross) issue mystery....can anyone explain ?

[barrysloate]

Ted- I just checked the back of the T207 Red Cross and that too is New Jersey.

[Baseball Rarities]

Ted,

I think that people have always known that Red Cross cards had a New Jersey factory on the back, but I think that several of the larger "original" finds of these cards were in Louisiana.

[FrankWakefield]

What Kevin said is the deal.

Mr. Lipset describes the Red Cross cards as being from Louisiana. He mentions the New Jersey factory designation, and notes that that has nothing to do with where the cards "are" actually found. Seems that would be a "were" in the present times. Thanks to card shows, dealers, and the internet, cards are no longer solely found where they were distributed. The last ZeeNut I bought did not come to me from someone in California... Ball cards have become migratory little rascals...

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
great detective work, as always!
i've been reading through Burdick's ACC again and again, seeking some narrative that might illuminate this enigma a bit.
The best i can come up with is in section 6 of 20th Century U.S. Tobacco Insert Cards: "Many were distributed in only one area of the country,such as
the Pacific Coast issues of Obaks,Sultans, Grand Duke, Imperiales, Kopec, Pets, and Mono. In Louisiana were Coupon, Red Sun, Kotton, Victory, and
Mino. "
No mention of Red Cross in Louisiana.
I think Frank has it when he says colloquially yet poignantly:
'Ball cards have become migratory little rascals.....'
We imputed Louisiana to New Jersey and imputed it over and over again 'til
we finally believed it without question or even noticing, until now.
And Burdick in his always pithy 'narrative' knew it all along.

best,
barry

[tedzan]

Thanks, I appreciate your responses......but, I also appreciate the significance of the Factory system of the American Tobacco Co.
Coupon, Red Sun, and Victory Cigarettes were produced in Factory #3, or #8 (Victory brand)....District of Louisiana.

The T216 cigarettes were not part of ATC, they were a British product (also, the T216 cards were printed by American Caramel).





Therefore, if Red Cross cards were found in Louisiana, they most likely "migrated" (I like that, Frank) by some Northeast guy(s), who
moved to the Bayou country.
Either a retiree, or some one disgruntled by the excessive Joisey taxes (even back then)

Incidently, do we know of any Red Cross finds in the Northeast ?


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I've known Lew Lipset since 1981 and have great respect for his knowledge and contributions to the hobby.
Having said all that and having enjoyed some very nice vintage card deals that I have acquired from Lew, I
question his "Louisiana issue" regarding the Red Cross cards.

In my time, I have been fortunate to acquire 5 "original finds" of which only one of them did not "migrate"....
A 400+ T206 collection (all PIEDMONT) from South Carolina.

The other 4 were collections that did "migrate" are........

286 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Erie, PA

177 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Hartford, CT

122 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Georgia

200+ assorted SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 30, NY) T206's from Florida

Obviously, the SOVEREIGN's are Factory #25, VA....and, I offer these examples as an argument opposing the
T215's classified as a "Louisiana issue".....perhaps, based on one find (or two).

Your thoughts, please ?


TED Z

[toppcat]

Can't somebody that knows him just e-mail or phone Lipset? It sounds to me like he made a mistake is all but who knows (other than Lew)?

[drdduet]

As in a previous thread, research revealed that Mr. Burdick in the ACC, Lipset in his encyclopedia, and The Standard Catalog all refer to the issue as being a Louisiana regional issue. Burdick does it in his introduction to tobacco cards, if I remember correctly, as well as in his classification scheme.

Hobby history tells us this, but why? Is there evidence/documentation of the Louisiana finds of Red Cross? or is it hobby lore? Do any of you recollect a find in Louisiana?

Interesting.