What if..Burdick had classified T206's with respect to their individual 15 T-brands ?

[tedzan]

Regarding your......" All of these white border cards (E's and T's, sports and nonsports) from this period have stories to tell,
and I believe that analysis of the subject across all spectrums may reveal some yet unsolved mysteries or at least reveal
leads to answers. "

You are right, and we have looked at some of the "bigger pictures" on Net54 regarding the "interplay" between T206's, E90's,
Ramly's, T80 Militarymen, etc.

When I get a chance, I'll post the links to these threads.


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Darren:
"I believe the analysis of the subject across all the spectrums may reveal . . . ."
Yes, your unifying theory may well be the key, insisting that we step back
at a 'therapeutic distance' and see the connections, the interstitial areas we almost missed and begin to find answers which no question had asked.

all the best,
barry

[drdduet]

Right on Barry.

I as big a fan of Burdick as anyone. What he accomplished in his time is mind boggling. I can only imagine that if he were to do it today, he would have done it differently. His work was so thorough for the time that it may have actually prevented further research into the subject. As I read old hobby publications, Lew Lipset, etc. I come across statements that suggest just that. For example in Lipset T-card section of his Encyclopedia of Baseball cards he mentions that many collectors believe T213-1 to be a T206 issue but the ACC classifies it separately and that's that.

With everything we have available to us today and with more detailed lists of what is out there, I certainly see no harm and plenty upside in re-evaluating the subject.

The greatest obstacle I have in conducting this research, will be the lack of subjects in the rare issues. As stated before complete subject lists are lacking in many of the Louisiana issues because of rarity--this may slow the process but it won't stop it.

[drdduet]

Hi Ted,

I recall a few of those threads and they certainly helped fan the flames of the quest.

Hi Barry S.,

I sure ATC had no thoughts on what we collectors would think of as a set, and even more likely did not have the intention or care to categorize their offerings into anything other than a marketing tool. One of the obstacles to studying the subject is the fact that collector's have categorized and thus created divisions where divisions were not necessarily intended. For example--nonsports vs. baseball cards--when in fact they were issued together. Don't get me wrong, it's great for the baseball collector or nonsports collector, but not so much for the card purist.

[barrysloate]

Exactly Darren. A lot of our history is misinterpreted. We make assumptions about the T206 set that were never meant to be. But that's what collectors like to do.

[tedzan]

Can anyone explain why Red Cross backs state......

" Factory #10, 5th Dist. N.J. "

When these cards are catalogued as a Louisiana issue ? ?


TED Z

[drdduet]

Hi Ted,

Lipset's Encyclopedia states:

"The factory is noted as No. 10 in New Jersey, and this only substantiates the concept that the geographical location of the factory noted on these cards and other tobacco cards have nothing to do with where they are actually found."

Prior to that statement he describes Red Cross as the third of four Louisiana issues (the others being Coupon, Victory, and People's Tobacco).

[judsonhamlin]

Factory 10, based on a quick google search ("tobacco factory" "New Jersey") was the Jersey City factory operated by the Lorillard company in the late 19th century and was part of the ATC prior to the 1911 breakup. So, by the time the T215's were issued (even if late in 1911) they would be a post-ATC issue.

[tedzan]

Well, this violates the FEDERAL LAW that dictates that the advertising premium can only be associated with the Tobacco
product whose Factory is identified on it. This is how the FED's kept track of the tax revenues.

Are you guys saying that these so-called Louisiana cigarettes were really produced in Jersey City, NJ....and, then shipped
down to the Bayou country ?


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

If Red Cross went to Liggett & Myers, then that company would be on the hook for the tax revenue either way, no? Beside, I'm pretty sure the Statue of Limitations has run

[drdduet]

Ted,

I'm not certain on the legalities of all of it, I'll take your word for it. Lipset, the ACC, and the Standard Catalog all refer to Red Cross as a Louisiana issue and I've always heard to it referred that way as well.

I would assume why overprinting of some factory notations was important and thus done--because if they didn't and were distributed out of the state printed, they would be in violation of federal law?

Why is Red Cross considered a Louisiana issue? My thoughts and recollections are based purely of hobby documentation, suggestion, and reports of Red Cross "finds". Any of you have any other reasoning for considering Red Cross a Louisiana issue?

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by drdduet

Ted,

I'm not certain on the legalities of all of it, I'll take your word for it. Lipset, the ACC, and the Standard Catalog all refer to Red Cross as a Louisiana issue and I've always heard to it referred that way as well.

I would assume why overprinting of some factory notations was important and thus done--because if they didn't and were distributed out of the state printed, they would be in violation of federal law?

Why is Red Cross considered a Louisiana issue? My thoughts and recollections are based purely of hobby documentation, suggestion, and reports of Red Cross "finds". Any of you have any other reasoning for considering Red Cross a Louisiana issue?

Many T cards were distributed out of the state where they were produced I believe--the factory notations were required for legal reasons associated with production and packaging as noted by Ted. There is a thread here on this somewhere on the site or maybe T206collector.com has it archived. The Red Cross/Louisiana connection is an intriguing one for sure.

[teetwoohsix]

"What if ..Burdick had classified T206's with respect to their 15 individual T-brands?"

Didn't he do that,in a sense?He painstakenly included every T-brand into T206that should've been included-and excluded others,for good reason-aside from similarities.

Jefferson Burdick was born in the year 1900 people.He was 9,10,and 11 years old when T206 cards were being circulated.HE WAS THERE!!!He also,more than likely,had a lot more information available back then to base his theories on than we have now-in the year 2010.Now,all we can do is debate and speculate and base our theories off of the limited information we have available to us in this day and age.

My point is that Burdick classified ALL of these cards the way he did for a reason.It may not make sense in some cases to you or I,but rest assured,he had a reason-and it made sense to him-a person who was alive through all of this.T206 is just fine the way it is.

[barrysloate]

Clayton- interesting that you pointed out Burdick was roughly a ten year old when T206 was issued. You can imagine that that is when he developed his passion for these cards, as he was a child during their golden age. Had he been born in 1890, which would have made him 20 in 1910 and perhaps too old to collect them, his whole life, and our hobby, might have been different.

[drdduet]

I believe we have more detailed information than Burdick had in his day, but I must say he did a bang up, unbelievable job with the limitations of that period. Additionally there is always room to "grow" from retrospective analyses.

There will always be those who will collect via the ACC, and there will always be those who "dig" for answers.

Living in that period also means he was subject to the ideals, philosophy, and prejudices of the time. While I believe it poignant and proper to include a first hand account, I also believe that the best history is written after the fact--when all the factors, pieces, perspectives, and impact can be taken into account. And he did put it all together after the fact, but with not near the information we have available to us now. It would be invaluable if I could pick his brain and ask him to expound on why he did it one way or another. What Burdick has provided is invaluable and second to none, I don't think anyone would argue with that.