T206 Coupon type 1 scarcity level?

[tedzan]

First of all, did you read my answer to you in my Post #47, regarding where all these Tobacco cards were printed ?

Now, for your latest question....we have documentation that indicates that the American Litho. Co. (ALC) printed
and issued the American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910. Between the Summer and Fall of 1910, ALC also
printed and issued the Broad Leaf 350, Coupon #1, Cycle 350, and Drum cards. As is obvious here in my scan, the
back design is essentially identical for all 5 of these T206 brands. This tells us that these backs were drawn by the
same artist at ALC, and in the same timeframe.





TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

.

[drdduet]

Criteria listed were just examples---by your statements Frank I'm sure you don't consider Cobb with Cobb back a T206 either....right?

Well it seems we rehash some of the same arguments over and over again as others familiarize themselves with the differences and similarities.

In Louisiana, most dealers have a history of referring to ALL white border tobacco cards (Victory, Pirate, Coupon, etc.) as T206's. To this day that urks the heck out of me. But I can say that it is only through sound research and the weighing of all the facts that I classify T213-1 as T206.

While this controversy may receive some mention in future catalogues and price guides, the only real determinant of the acceptance of T213-1 as T206 by the vintage card collecting community will be prices realized.

[FrankWakefield]

.

[tedzan]

Regarding your post #59......
" And Ted, while those images look nice, and the frame lines are compelling... 4 of them mention "350" one doesn't...."

Very true; however, the "COUPON" tobacco company was a recent acquire by ATC (circa 1909/1910....and, it appears as if American
Litho. (ALC) designed this set as an ASSORTED series of cards.

Let us view this COUPON issue from their FRONT's standpoint. ALC selected 48 Major Leaguers from their 350 series gallery (which we
know was in print in the Summer/Fall of 1910) and 20 Southern Leaguers from the 48 in the earlier T206 series, that best represented
the region served by the Coupon Tobacco Co.

So, I'm not concerned that the wording "350 Subjects" was omitted on the COUPON back.


Best regards my friend,

TED Z

[tedzan]

The gloss on the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back card is similar to the T213-2 cards issued in 1914-1916. However, we have
a 1910 Macon, Georgia newspaper clipping advertising this card in 1910.

Furthermore, in Senator Russell's collection there is this a Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card. Russell collected his Tobacco cards
as a teenager in the 1910-1911 period.

TED Z

Originally Posted by tedzan

First of all, did you read my answer to you in my Post #47, regarding where all these Tobacco cards were printed ?



TED Z

I am sorry Ted I misnamed you Frank by accident

As is obvious here in my scan, the
back design is essentially identical for all 5 of these T206 brands. This tells us that these backs were drawn by the
same artist at ALC, and in the same timeframe.

Also your Theory that just because they are all made or drawn by the same guy they were printed at the same time frame. Holds water like a bucket full of holes. Has there never been printing plates made for print runs then put awayt and a few yrs later brought back out and some mods made and reused?I am looking at this from a logical piont of view. We know that there are several backs of the same design. You have dating for those in the appropriate time frames. Coupons . So they could date from 1909-1913 right.

we have documentation that indicates that the American Litho. Co. (ALC) printed
and issued the American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910. Between the Summer and Fall of 1910, ALC also
printed and issued the Broad Leaf 350, Coupon #1, Cycle 350, and Drum cards.

If you have or it is definite that there is documents that 100% name and support that Coupons were printed in that date and during the T206 runs then this should have never been a disscussion because it is for 100% sure a T206 and has been misclassified and needs to be adjusted to its correct identifier. This would make the Type 2's and 3's into 1's and 2' then or make them T206-2's and 206-3's.

[tedzan]

Dave
You asked......" Ted-why would the packs be uncut but the cards cut? "

Assembled cigarette packs are 3-dimensional, and shipping them as such is not as practical as shipping stacked uncut sheets of
these packs. The T-factories certainly had the machinery (or workers) that would cut, fold, and assemble the packs on location.

Proof of this operation was found some years ago, when an uncut sheet of 24 Piedmont packs were found in an Antique shop in
North Carolina.


Thanks for a great question,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Andrew

So, you are skeptical of my "back design" theory ?

I will leave you with one more tidbit....please notice that the name "COUPON" is in quotes. This provides us with a timeline,
as the Coupon Tobacco Co. had been acquired by the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in the 1909/1910 timeframe; and, the
ATC Copyright was still pending.

Now....I will approach this argument from the "front design" facts. The 48 major league players in the COUPON #1 set are
all from the 350 series (printed and issued in late 1909 to 1910). This fact is undeniable.
Whereas, in the T213-2 & T213-3 sets, the front designs are derived from many players in the 460 series of the T206 set
that were issued in 1911. This fact by itself, is sufficient to narrow the window of time when the COUPON #1 set was is-
sued to 1910.

There are 48 Southern Leaguers (SL) in the T206 set which were ONLY printed and issued in 1909 & 1910. American Litho.
selected 20 SL (listed here) from these 48 SL in the T206 design for the COUPON #1 set that represent the region served
by the Coupon Tobacco Co.

American Litho. did not design these white-bordered cards in a random fashion. Throughout the T206 set, it is evident that
it was designed, printed and issued in a certain timeline, with a lot of due diligence. And, this includes the 1910 COUPON
set of 68 cards.


List of 1910 COUPON Southern Leaguers

Bay.....Nashville
Bernhard.....Nashville
Breitenstein.....New Orleans
Carey.....Memphis
Cranston.....Memphis
Ellam.....Nashville
Fritz.....New Orleans
Greminger....Montgomery
Hart....Montgomery
Hart.....Little Rock
Hickman.....Mobile
Jordan.....Atlanta
Lentz.....Little Rock
Molesworth.....Birmingham
Perdue.....Nashville
Persons....Montgomery
Reagan.....New Orleans
Rockenfeld.....New Orleans
Smith.....Atlanta
Thornton.....Mobile

Finally, I have to say that I don't follow your logic on your other comments.


TED Z

Originally Posted by tedzan

Andrew

I will leave you with one more tidbit....please notice that the name "COUPON" is in quotes. This provides us with a timeline,
as the Coupon Tobacco Co. had been acquired by the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in the 1909/1910 timeframe; and, the
ATC Copyright was still pending.

Now....I will approach this argument from the "front design" facts. The 48 major league players in the COUPON #1 set are
all from the 350 series (printed and issued in late 1909 to 1910). This fact is undeniable.
Whereas, in the T213-2 & T213-3 sets, the front designs are derived from many players in the 460 series of the T206 set
that were issued in 1911. This fact by itself, is sufficient to narrow the window of time when the COUPON #1 set was is-
sued to 1910.

There are 48 Southern Leaguers (SL) in the T206 set which were ONLY printed and issued in 1909 & 1910. American Litho.
selected 20 SL (listed here) from these 48 SL in the T206 design for the COUPON #1 set that represent the region served
by the Coupon Tobacco Co.

American Litho. did not design these white-bordered cards in a random fashion. Throughout the T206 set, it is evident that
it was designed, printed and issued in a certain timeline, with a lot of due diligence. And, this includes the 1910 COUPON
set of 68 cards.


TED Z

Ted this is exactly what I was looking for to hear. So with this info there is no doubt that the Type 1's were printed during the T206 runs thus making the Type 1's another sub set of the T206's. So hearing all this I vote that Coupons should be reclassified to T206's and now the part about where the Type 2's and 3's should go. Would they as well as some other Sets be able to fall into T206-2's?

[FrankWakefield]

.

[teetwoohsix]

I have to agree Frank.I HIGHLY respect Ted Z's knowledge on the subject(and also everyone else contributing to this thread),but I still feel the same way about it.

I am not for reclassifying these T cards,regardless of any and all similarities.There are obvious reasons T213-1's are grouped with the T213-2's and T213-3's.Jefferson Burdick did not go into this blind.

If you want to change a Burdick designation to a card,why not go after changing the H801-7 Old Mill Cabinets????This is something I think everyone would agree on-that these examples should've been assigned a "T" code.

This is a great discussion-I love it!!But I do not want to see T206 turn into "T206-1,T206-2,etc.,etc.,.........it's already big enough guys!!Except for some certain T206 collectors who have been collecting T206's for decades,and have completed the set and many sub-sets within.........hhhmmmnnn.....

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Dave
You asked......" Ted-why would the packs be uncut but the cards cut? "

Assembled cigarette packs are 3-dimensional, and shipping them as such is not as practical as shipping stacked uncut sheets of
these packs. The T-factories certainly had the machinery (or workers) that would cut, fold, and assemble the packs on location.

Proof of this operation was found some years ago, when an uncut sheet of 24 Piedmont packs were found in an Antique shop in
North Carolina.


Thanks for a great question,

TED Z

Ted: I may have phrased it incorrectly-I meant to ask why the cards would have been cut before shipping. It would seem to me to be easier to ship uncut sheets and then cut the cards and feed them into the packs as they were assembled at each factory.

Thinking out loud, perhaps this method would explain why American Beauties are thinner, since they could have been cut at the factory and not been truly uniform compared to the cuts on other brands.

Just a WAG but curious as always on the means and methods of T206 distribution.

[drdduet]

Here's a question,

Cobb with Cobb back is most like which of the Coupon issues?