1916-1920 Date for "Big Head" Strip Cards

[rhettyeakley]

Matt, good topic. Unfortunately the players aren't too much of a help.

I think the Bodie situation (having not played in the majors since 1914 and then again in 1917) and Cadore being such a miniscule part of the team in 1915 & 1916 I think it is pretty safe to eliminate the 1916 date from them. This would make them 1917 at the earliest. 1917 is still on the table though as it may have been made midway during that season as some of these guys were enjoying a good year.

It is hard to see the teams on the chests of the players that include them (which could be a clue if a player changed teams at any point during the span).

If I were a betting man the set probably dates to 1918-1922 or so.

-Rhett

Edited to add: There is nothing magic about the 1920 date either (as Mark says) they very well could be from after 1920.

[rhettyeakley]

Larry Doyle's last year in the majors was 1920, so I doubt these were made too long after that (although he was a very popular player.) They certainly could be from as late as 1921 but I doubt they are later than 1922.
-Rhett

Edited to add: Matt beat me with the Doyle info.

[rhettyeakley]

I have also found a handful of these along with some W520, W522, and a few W516-1's in a vintage collection as well--so the 1920 or so date is probably a bit more accurate.

[nolemmings]

Cadore is probably your best bet in helping to pin it down further, but questions remain. Although your rationale is sound, keep in mind that Joe Judge appears in the m101 sets from 1916 and that both Bodie and Rice appear in the 1917 E135 sets, so someone thought to include them in those earlier years when they were as yet unproven. Granted, one would think a twenty card set would focus on established stars, but other small sets have included some lesser lights as well. If Konetchy is supposed to be depicted in a Brooklyn uniform, he did not join that team until 1919.

Incidentally, in looking at the scans, it seems to me that the cards of Cadore and Bodie are mixed up for one another. Cadore is shown wearing a "C" when he never played for such a team (except a one-game stint for the Chisox in 1923), instead pitching for Brooklyn, and Bodie is shown wearing a "B" when he in fact was playing for Cincinnati and never played for a team beginning with "B". Also, the pose of Cadore is as a hitter when he was a pitcher and Bodie was considered a bit of a slugger, and, while cartoonish, the face on the Cadore card bears some resemblance to Bodie, IMO.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

...one would think a twenty card set would focus on established stars, but other small sets have included some lesser lights as well...

Todd - that's precisely the point - the M101 or E135 set had hundreds of players - they couldn't all be starters, let alone stars. Smaller sets that include lesser players are usually team issues. Especially with all of those players having large 1917 seasons (and thereafter) it's overwhelmingly doubtful they were included following only their 1915 or 1916 contributions.

[teetwoohsix]

Hello all-
Just wanted to say this is a great thread.As Todd pointed out,it seems that maybe they switched up the Bodie & Cadore letters on the uniform.

It got me to wondering if maybe they put the first letter of their last names on the uniforms of these two cards for some reason,rather than a letter for the team.

I'm sure I'm wrong,but could it be?

Thanks,Clayton

[nolemmings]

I don't disagree with you Matt, except maybe your use of the word "overwhelmingly". I always wondered why these dates lean earlier than perhaps they should anyway--why not figure out the latest date and assume that was the year of issue, or maybe even the following season? Seems from the anecdotal evidence presented that very well may be the case.

[brianp-beme]

In accordance to the information provided by Matt, Mark, Rhett and others, and checking the player's careers, I think this set can be narrowed down to the 1918-1921 time frame. It is a small set, and all of the players depicted had a career of some note, which is pretty consistent with other small sets throughout the vintage era. Just think of some of the other comparable small group strip sets of this period; there are no obscure players included (please point out any exceptions to this). That is why I lean closer to the 1920 issue date--by this time all the careers of the included players had been well established.

The team designations on the uniforms, when seen, do not necessarily represent a specific team, as noted previously for Cadore and Bodie. The closest I see is the Baker card with a 'NYA' designation, which I surmise could indicate the New York Americans. The Konetchey card has a 'Y', which I could not figure out what in the fadoodle this would mean.

Also, it is interesting to note that Mark indicated an original find originating in the Washington DC area, as either 3 or 4 of the players in the set during this time frame were with the Senators (see below why this could be either 3 or 4). In the 1918-1920 time frame (sorry, didn't check 1921), the set is also heavy with New York Yankees (2-4 players, depending upon the year). It also appears there was no attempt to include a player from every team, as there are no players from Pittsburg or the Chicago Cubs.

Finally, there are two cards whose identities I believe can be questioned, due to both lack of team designations and the crude, non-realistic player drawings (the E91A and part of E91B, however maligned, have much more realistic facial portrayals of the players depicted).

First is the card of Burns. Unfortunately there were two George Burns, both with prominent careers, that played during the era, so I don't think we can narrow this down to either.

The other card is the one with the designation of 'Johnston'. The guidebooks have always listed this card as a mispelling of Walter Johnson, but there were two prominent players during this time frame with the last name of Johnston, so I think it possible that some assumptions were perhaps carelessly made. The card shows a player throwing righthanded, so we can probably eliminate Doc Johnston, but Jimmy Johnston of Brooklyn also had a notable career (along the lines of Cadore, Konetchey, Bagby and others depicted in the set) and was a righthander. Can anyone tell me for sure that this card is actually Walter Johnson? It certainly bears no resemblance to him. And other star players of the time, such as Speaker and Alexander, are not included in this set, so I don't think we can positively identify this card, especially with an inaccurate spelling, as that of Walter Johnson. Hope this doesn't throw someone's WaJo collection into a quandry.

Brian

[Matt]

Brian - wonderful comments and great point on WoJo. I'm going to shoot an email to his grandson (a board member) to see if there was a "Big Head" in grandpa's collection. Not that such a thing would answer the question conclusively, but if in 1921 WoJo thought he was the one depicted, I'd give that some weight.

Edited to add that the one known as WoJo does have a 'W' on his jersey which would not make sense for the Johnston possibility, though, as we've seen above, it's not altogether clear what those letters are for.