its not the auction houses fault its the bidders

[barrysloate]

I would hope that an auction house could be held to a higher standard than some scammer from Nigeria.

[3-2-count]

Barry you beat me to it. My sentiments exact!!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I would hope that an auction house could be held to a higher standard than some scammer from Nigeria.

Um, look at some of the heads of auction houses. Their resumes indicate that they could teach classes to some of the Nigerian scammers.

[Mr. Mitt]

I think I understand what sflayank is trying to say as I've bid this way since auction houses have been online. I don't show my hand by inputting a maximum bid, in any auction, regardless of reputation. If I'm the high bid at $2k, and that's my highest bid, the auction house takes on the risk by outbidding me. They have no idea if I or any other bidder will emerge to top them. I could be willing to pay up to $5k on the item, but if I bid incimentally, on my own and not via an automatic bid, they assume the risk that I may not return to top them if they shill and outbid me.

I have nothing against any auction house, but my perception of each and every one of them is the same - they will do anything to make an extra buck, so don't trust them. Seems that the general perception of Mastro/Legendary has drastically changed over the past few years. Five years ago, no one would have dreamed to question their ethics. Who's to say that in five years time we're not having the same discussions about a currently reputable business. In the end, each bidder has to be comfortable with themselves. Some will bid with a particular auction house, others won't. Some will utilize the maximum bid feature, others (like me) won't. It's not a perfect world, gentlemen. Unfortunately you have to take precautions and look over your shoulder, even if everything appears to be on the up and up.

[barrysloate]

Jerry - your point could be well taken, but you are missing something critical.

Suppose a card has a fair market value of $2000 and it is sitting at $1400 late on the final night. The auction house then places the next bid of $1500. Sure, they run the risk of buying it, but at that level they may be glad to do so.

I think with some auction houses the policy is they will not let anything go cheap, even if they have to buy it themselves. And had they won that $2000 card for the $1500 bid, they would just hang onto it for a bit and resell it for a profit down the road. So they really risked nothing.

[Mr. Mitt]

Absolutely, Barry. I completely agree with you. Given current economic conditions, your arbitrage scenario is realistic. If the $2k value is firm, the item should not sell below $2k because whoever buys it (auction house or other collector) immediately generates a profit. Given the current state of affairs of falling prices, however, the auction house may need time to unload it at $2k. An auction, by definition, sets the price in a market economy. If the item sells for $1500, that's its true value, not $2k anymore. Sure, given time the buyer may get $2k for it, but again, they assume the risk as it may fall further in price the next time it is offered.

My argument, and I believe sflayanks' point, was more geared toward items where a premium is being bid into the price. If the item in question is valued at $2k and my current, maximum bid is $2k, the auction house runs the risk of purchasing the item above market value if they shill me. They don't know my circumstances nor what premium I place on the item. I may be willing to pay $5k for it (for whatever reason), but why show my hand? I could put in a $5k bid and it goes to that level because the auction house is unscrupulous. I truly don't know if they are or if they're not, but I'm sure as hell not going to believe them simply because they say they're honest. I'd rather bid on the item incrementally, each decision to bid above the item's perceived $2k value is mine, and mine alone. Say it goes back and forth from $2k to $2800. If they are shilling me and its supposed value is only $2k, perhaps they stop there and call it a victory. Sure, I got screwed out of $800 because of illegal shilling, but it's a lot better than paying the full $5k I was willing to spend.

[sflayank]

thanks matt
thats exactly what im trying to say
if you bid incrementally the auction house takes the risk of winning it back if it bumps u up
if you make a max bid you take the risk that the auction house is honest

[Mr. Mitt]

It's Mitt... Mr. Mitt

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jerry - your point could be well taken, but you are missing something critical.

Suppose a card has a fair market value of $2000 and it is sitting at $1400 late on the final night. The auction house then places the next bid of $1500. Sure, they run the risk of buying it, but at that level they may be glad to do so.

I think with some auction houses the policy is they will not let anything go cheap, even if they have to buy it themselves. And had they won that $2000 card for the $1500 bid, they would just hang onto it for a bit and resell it for a profit down the road. So they really risked nothing.

I guess we can remove that last sentence. Didn't work so well for H&S.