Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

[onlychild]

I'm not an expert on altered cards but would appreciate learning more as to how the doctors work on alterations and, just as importantly, work with the auction house heads.

Jeff, that is a lose/lose scenario. As you know, I am a card doctor and regardless of what anyone thinks, to the best of my knowledge not one of my altered cards are in the hobby. If you try and explain in a public forum or anywhere on the net for that matter, how cards are doctored, you are just giving lessons or more ideas to the criminal aspect. Only so much can be explained, but then you get ripped for not going into enough detail. I think the best is to show what can be done and/or what to look for. One on one, would be the best way to learn and more details can be given.

I enjoy getting auction catalogs, just to see what cards IMO have been potentially altered. Of course it's impossible to tell without the card in hand (even then it can be tough) but if you have altered enough cards, you can get a pretty good idea. Just my opinion but I think it's a plague and far more prevalent than shilling. Perhaps an auction company can become more trusted if they had an internal expert checking for possible alterations...then rejecting them if discovered or suspected.

I've warned a few auction companies about cards that have or may have been altered...Mastro more than once. They either don't care or have just banned me. REA is definitely the best and most concerned...that's just not lip service by Lifson, he genuinely cares.

If I'm not mistaken haven't you been banned from Mastro/Legendary as well? We should form a club.

I don't think it happens too often that collectors buy cards from auction houses and find out they are doctored. Besides do they really want to know and face a potential large loss? It only becomes a factor or devastating when the card is outed as a fake, restored, doctored.

Then you have those who think it's perfectly alright to send a card and pay a "restorer" to remove ink spots, residue, tape etc. These are some of the same collectors that are or have been the most vocal when it comes to card alterations. It's perfectly fine if their card can get a bump or two though as long as someone else is doing it and they are paying for the service.

As Greg so perfectly stated, "The public has had many rude awakenings and just go right back to sleep." I just hope we don't wake up and discover the the root of the problem is not with the auction companies.

Okay, I've rambled enough (LOL).

Kevin

[calvindog]

Kevin, why not out the cards that you see in an auction catalog that you believe might be altered? What's the downside to that?

And I'm not surprised that Mastro would ignore your communications about altered cards; after all, they have no problem presenting altered items without full disclosure (until caught).

[onlychild]

Hummm...would be tough to out a card "I think" might be altered. Keeping in mind I have more doubts than most by the nature of my specialty. Can see where collectors might beat me with their slabs or at least give me a tasty card paper cut. Would be totally different if it could be proved though...then it would not be a problem.

Yep, even when faced with the truth Mastro just shrugged and let the auction ride...then banned me. Since it was an Americana piece, I did out it on another collectible forum. A bunch of their cards have always been questionable, as we all know.

[Fred]

What a thread... it goes from buying from Legendary to other auction houses to card doctoring, shill bidding, etc.

It makes me want to buy material graded 1 - 3 so there wouldn't be much worry about the card being doctored. Oh yeah, I buy that crap already, but not for that reason.

Maybe I'm a bit naive but I really do believe there are honest auction houses and honest individuals that hold auctions. Speaking of which... Hey Barry, when's your next auction?

[Rich Klein]

When Mr. Crandall used to post; he swore that cards in grades 1-3 were more played with (altered) than cards in 7 or higher. So don't be so sure you're safe with 1-3

Rich

[Fred]

Is nothing sacred? I can't even buy a crappy "1" card and not be concerned

Crappy condition cards have character!

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

When Mr. Crandall used to post; he swore that cards in grades 1-3 were more played with (altered) than cards in 7 or higher. So don't be so sure you're safe with 1-3

Rich

Rich- Do you think that might have been because Crandall's cards were 7s or higher and he didn't buy cards 1-3?
You'll never convince me of what he swore to because the money for 7's, 8's and 9's is exponentially so much higher and makes trimming lucrative for these cards.

[onlychild]

What a thread... it goes from buying from Legendary to other auction houses to card doctoring, shill bidding, etc.

It's all relevant.

[E93]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Kevin, why not out the cards that you see in an auction catalog that you believe might be altered? What's the downside to that?

What a completely reckless idea! Kevin makes mistakes. I know this personally. How would you feel if you consigned a 10k card that you knew to be good and somebody came on a public forum claiming it was altered on the basis of a scan? The downside is completely screwing somebody in a situation that may have no wrongdoing or altered card.

In some obvious cases one can tell from a scan, but that is not usually the case with slabbed cards in major auctions.
JimB