Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

barrysloate · #1 02-13-2010, 09:31 AM

I agree Peter. Overpaying for something isn't good, but at least you get the item. Buying an altered or counterfeit piece is much worse, because you get nothing. But it's all bad.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 02-13-2010, 09:35 AM

Of course it isn't necessarily an either/or, as I am sure there are countless instances of paying a shilled price for an altered card or a misrepresented item.

Leon · #3 02-13-2010, 09:57 AM

Hey, you guys quit throwing Scott and I (B & L) under the bus, would ya'?

We are still young in the auction business but have done no wrong and our intent is to do no wrong. If you want to see real market prices check our auctions. I can't really give opinions of other auction houses but only very few come to mind where I don't think anything wrong has happened. I will leave it at that

. best regards

Peter_Spaeth · #4 02-13-2010, 10:03 AM

Yes Jeff you can look at it in that reductionist way, but typically the gap between the value of a card altered v. as holdered will be a hell of a lot more than a bid level or two.

calvindog · #5 02-13-2010, 10:11 AM

I don't doubt that. But I also think that in any given auction, the incidence of shill bidding per lot might be greater than the incidence of altered cards offered.

And for argument's sake, if an altered card is in a numbered holder the owner of that card very well might be able to get his purchase price back upon resale; the same cannot be said for the buyer of a shilled card at auction. How many of you have sold cards on ebay and wondered why the hell you can't get back even close to your purchase price?

Peter_Spaeth · #6 02-13-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don't doubt that. But I also think that in any given auction, the incidence of shill bidding per lot might be greater than the incidence of altered cards offered.

Depends who the consignors are.

And I would go with altered cards, generally speaking.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 02-13-2010, 10:18 AM

Jeff for non-commodity cards, the conversion of one buyer to a seller can significantly affect the price. EDIT TO ADD Also ebay's increment structure inherently makes for lower prices. So shilling is not always the explanation.

botn · #8 02-13-2010, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

How many of you have sold cards on ebay and wondered why the hell you can't get back even close to your purchase price?

Not a fair conclusion Jeff. eBay's 24/7 365 format makes it tough to get buyers' attention. An auction that takes place on a specific date with an accompanied catalog permits buyers to make the date in the calendar. Not everyone who buys cards can sit around scanning ebay every day.

Further I am quite certain that the number of altered cards in holders and bogus authenticated memorabilia far surpasses the incidents of shill bidding (even if you are counting number of individual shill bids placed). I am absolutely certain that if you were able to measure how much the card doctor/dealers have made over the years it would dwarf the total amount of bids which constitute shill bids over the same period. It is safe to say that the principals of auction houses are not making as much as individual dealers who trim up cards, and by whatever means available to them, get them into holders and then pass the worthless items off to collectors.

Orioles1954 · #9 02-13-2010, 10:54 AM

What percentage of lots in a given Mastro Auction (or any other suspected auctions) do you all think were/have been shilled?

calvindog · #10 02-13-2010, 11:57 AM

Greg/Mike: I didn't mean to use ebay as a sole example for resale. Poor resale prices in consecutive auctions for the same cards is evident as well, the only difference being lack of fraud in the latter auctions.

And Greg, I appreciate your insight as to altered cards and would love to hear more. As you know, my belief that Mastro (and other auction houses) have been engaged in shill bidding for years was first sparked simply by looking at the anecdotal proof from the auctions themselves: bidding patterns, final prices, etc. I thought it was pretty obvious and I feel certain today that my beliefs were well-founded. I'm not an expert on altered cards but would appreciate learning more as to how the doctors work on alterations and, just as importantly, work with the auction house heads.

calvindog · #11 02-13-2010, 09:49 AM

I have to laugh at some of the reasoning on this board, seriously.

Ok, one last time, very slowly:

if you are defrauded by x number of dollars due to a shill bid and you receive an authentic card at an unauthentic price, you are out x dollars.

if you purchase an altered card with the assumption it is not altered, you have been defrauded by the amount that the card is worth as advertised as unaltered minus the amount that the card is worth advertised as altered. If that difference is x dollars, then each fraud described above has the same financial impact on the buyers.

Mike, as for the mentality that "if you bid with your head and your budget in mind, you wouldn't overpay" this does not excuse shill bidding which raises the final price to a level that that the bidder still believes is appropriate if he is 'bidding with his head.' All that means is that his 'head' is unaware of the true value of the card.

And Jeff P, the only solution is law enforcement or civil lawsuits brought against the auction houses. It is clear to me based on the high incidence of lowlifes that head up most of the auction houses in our hobby that they cannot be trusted to police themselves. I wrote about this in 2006(!) that it was clear to me why fraudsters (convicted or soon to be) gravitate towards this hobby/business. It's just too easy for them to steal in an unfettered, unmonitored fashion. And reading some comments on this thread, the victims themselves don't even want to be considered victims most of the time. It's almost as if the government/law enforcement need to protect some of the victims here from themselves.

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