Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

[Bicem]

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

[three25hits]

The only major auction house I have purchased from in the last 4 years is REA.

Do I know they are clean? Nope. But that uncertainty doesn't compel me to buy from those I know are dirty.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by three25hits

The only major auction house I have purchased from in the last 4 years is REA.

Dang, wish I had your patience!

[slidekellyslide]

I'm curious what some of you guys would do if Legendary were to auction off for example an 1893 Just So Cy Young and you needed that card for your Rookie Collection, or you are trying to complete the Just So set (This is obviously hypothetical) and you know that a certain Ivy League collector is your competition and you also know this Ivy League collector has vowed to be buried with his collection. Do you bid in the auction or does your moral compass tell you that your lifelong collecting dream of having the Cy Young rookie card die right then and there?

[three25hits]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'm curious what some of you guys would do if Legendary were to auction off for example an 1893 Just So Cy Young and you needed that card for your Rookie Collection, or you are trying to complete the Just So set (This is obviously hypothetical) and you know that a certain Ivy League collector is your competition and you also know this Ivy League collector has vowed to be buried with his collection. Do you bid in the auction or does your moral compass tell you that your lifelong collecting dream of having the Cy Young rookie card die right then and there?

My personal choice is not to do business with certain auction houses. There isn't a hypothetical situation that would make me change my stance. I don't even look at the lots in those houses. I am not sure why its such a big deal. I make my money. And I choose where to spend it.

[calvindog]

Brian, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your position. And Dan, your point is well-taken but I just think you need to appreciate that only in rare circumstances can someone who bids on these auctions be responsible for being defrauded. As Jeff P notes, who knows what goes on during these auctions? One day an auction house is supposedly clean, the next day it's not. Maybe none of them are clean. I suppose if you want to be 100% sure you won't be defrauded you can simply stop buying cards; but this is just not a realistic situation. As I said, all we can hope for is that the auction houses obey the law of the land, nothing more, nothing less.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brian, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your position. And Dan, your point is well-taken but I just think you need to appreciate that only in rare circumstances can someone who bids on these auctions be responsible for being defrauded. As Jeff P notes, who knows what goes on during these auctions? One day an auction house is supposedly clean, the next day it's not. Maybe none of them are clean. I suppose if you want to be 100% sure you won't be defrauded you can simply stop buying cards; but this is just not a realistic situation. As I said, all we can hope for is that the auction houses obey the law of the land, nothing more, nothing less.

I just know I'm looking forward to this case proceeding and I hope the guilty parties are punished enough to make sure that others think very hard about committing the same things. I really wonder how much the skyrocketing values of cards in this hobby over the last decade or so are due solely to fraudulent activity combined with the "need" to have it mentality of many collectors.

[barrysloate]

I agree with Jeff that you shouldn't in any way support people who commit fraud, but in the world of baseball memorabilia, if you are going to follow that rule to the letter of the law, you really need to find another hobby. Because for as long as I have been in this industry, fraud has been a way of life for a great many. It's unfortunate, but the fact that collectors are addicted and have a good deal of money plays into the hands of all the shady sellers. And while I have met a number of truly honest and fair people, they very well may be in the minority. And for all the stories of fraud we hear about on this board, there are oh so many more that don't go public. It's really pretty sad.

[bmarlowe1]

Very recently in a thread in this forum we saw that Leland's auctioned a photo of Miller Huggins that was easily shown to be Al Bridwell, and they knew it well before the auction closed. The got over 3 grand from someone for it.

I wonder how many people saw that, yet will still bid on items offered by Leland's.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Bicem

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

In the last couple years I have bid with REA, B&L and Heroes of Sport. Before I registered to bid with any of those, I had some form of personal exchange with each of Rob, Leon and young Mr. Jaimet that led me to have respect for them. Also, each had many who vouched for their above-board dealings. And I reviewed auction results from REA and B&L - I saw nothing to concern me in the way of outlandish results or outlier prices. Could any of them possibly be doing something offside? I suppose so. But I don't think so.

With Ebay, I have had many pleasant dealings with people. I end up being a repeat customer of many of these guys. I consider David B and bagger77 (Dave) to be great and stand-up guys. Basically, you are safe to buy from any guy named Dave .

Cheers,
Blair

[three25hits]

I should clarify my response. My response of REA only was in the context of those that send catalogs.

If we broaden the question to any auction, in addition to REA, I have purchased from B&L (one lot), 19thcentury (one lot) and ebay (several) in the last 4 years.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Bicem

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

Jeff....

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying it is not rational to avoid someone who has been caught.... because you don't know what others have done (who have yet to be caught)?

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by bijoem

Jeff....

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying it is not rational to avoid someone who has been caught.... because you don't know what others have done (who have yet to be caught)?

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

[Leon]

Thanks Jeff..

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

I see your point about most being dirty....
but I don't share your viewpoint of an 'all' or 'none' when it comes to refusing to do business with an auction house.

They may all be dirty.... I really don't know....
but I reserve the right to pick and choose the grade of dirty that I don't like most

Right now - there are two auction houses that I avoid. They've turned my stomach at some point.... so, I really don't care to send them a check. Its not etched in stone, its just how I feel right now.

There may be auction houses that do or have done worse things. But these two managed to find my stomach-turning grade of dirty.

[MikeS]

All I can say is I have known Bill Mastro since I was a kid and learned everything about the industry from him (The good and the bad...just to same some BS replies on this post). Even through all the bad publicity I still chose Mastro Auctions for my consignments for the same reason Jeff mentioned in his posts. The fact is its human nature to dwell on a certain negative instance, but one still needs to measure the good from the past. The professionalism, knowledge and service was impeccable and when my consignment of the highest graded Walter Mails game goes for under $10K....I have a hard time believing shill bidding was common practice. Bottom line is...you go with the one who brings the consignor the best terms, has the largest membership to get your item in front of them and one who has the knowledge and service to boot

[Jim VB]

Just to be clear, Mike...

You've known Mastro for years.
You're aware of all that's been said about them.
You are AGREEING with Jeff.

And you rolled that all together and decided to stick with...Legendary?

[jcmtiger]

Mike S, I have known Bill Mastro for years and he did a lot of good things for the Hobby. I have read all the negative input from past posts and press reports. I am willing to wait until all information is ruled on. Also he and Rob Lifson now at Robert Edwards Auctions, at one time worked very closely together in the 70's and 80's didn't they? This is the Auction House that everyone likes right now. If I am wrong about that , let me know. If the statement about Rob Lifson is wrong, then I will retract it.

Joe

[three25hits]

MikeS,

Good luck getting paid. (a)

Brian



a. I say this to anyone consigning an item to any house

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby? By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

ready when you are...

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Bicem

ready when you are...

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.

[barrysloate]

Here's one way an unethical auction house operates:

Auction houses get to know the bidding habits of their best customers, and know that certain whales, particularly those who are working on top registry sets, will almost never stop bidding on a rare high grade card, say a "1 of 1." And they pretty much know that if they bump a bid on one of those cards their customer will certainly come back and bid again. These bidders, or marks, will never win any of these pieces unless a world's record price is achieved.

I know often the board is incredulous when they see a high grade vintage card selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars, and don't believe the transaction ever took place. And there is always a board member who seems to know who won it and therefore assumes the transaction was legitimate. So the problem is not whether the card sold, which it did, but how it got to that stratospheric level.

That is why so many of the whales leave the hobby rather abruptly. At some point they discover how they were treated and they drop out. And this has been going on for a very long time.

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.

And this is exactly why Huggins and Scott is at the top of may favorites. I have never heard anything bad about them and honestly, I have never had one bad feeling that something might be wrong. I can't say that about most Auction Houses.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby?

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud but go ahead and bid with the other guys who I also believe have committed past fraud.

Obviously, auction houses are not the only way to obtain cards, but they do seem to have about 90% of what I want to collect.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Bicem

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud

Um, watch your tenses there, boy. I'd hate for you to think that all is well going forward.

[Bicem]

sorry, ongoing fraud.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

They are young yet..... give them some time.

[HRBAKER]

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

Apparently not. This sort of mentality is what allows shill bidding to go on unfettered: "oh well, I paid what I thought the card was worth so it's all good." But it's not all good if the card could have been had for less than your max bid and for less than what you thought the card might be worth. This is why it is an auction and not a tag sale. Also, when a card is shilled to a level beyond what the card would have sold for minus the fraud, the next time that card comes up for auction either in that grade or a different one, a false precedent has been set. Even if no direct fraud occurs in the latter auction, the impact of the prior fraud is real.

And sadly, why am I saying this....again? How many more years do we need to hear the basic concepts of Fraud 101? This is pretty basic stuff, right?