Cobb/Edwards and the T206 Honus Wagner

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Jeff and Leon,
I was thinking the same thing.....

Hope you guys are well. Brian


PS Hi Barry, you are too nice....

[Brian-Chidester]

Apologize.

I didn't realize that you guys were above questioning.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Brian. I've been spending the day digging my car out of a snowstorm. We had quite a doozy today.

Brian C.- I understand you may not have handled that many T206's, but trust me when I tell you that an experienced eye would not think for a moment that that Wagner was real. Everything is wrong about it.

[Brian-Chidester]

Barry... I've handled many, many real T206s over the last 25 years, just not a real Wagner. I'm asking you and anyone else -- devoid of sarcasm, condescension and bitterness -- to please address the basics of this card. Color, design, printing, dimensions, aging.

Again, I don't really care who attacks me in whatever hauty manner chosen. If it makes some lowly person feel better, so be it.

[barrysloate]

Brian- I certainly wasn't being condescending. The color is off, the clarity isn't quite right, the font is wrong and if memory serves the lettering is the wrong color, the card has funny corners and edges and looks like it was glued to something else, and there are probably a couple of other signs I am forgetting.

[Brian-Chidester]

Barry... for the record, I don't think he card is real, nor does it look real to my eyes. But I am trying to give it that all-American advantage of "innocent until proven guilty."

-So, in this case, does not the color vary from specimen to specimen? There are all manner of color variations for every card in the T206 series.

-For clarity, could not the massive amount of scum on the card attribute in the slightest to its clarity being off?

-Is the font actually not the same letter as other T206s? If so, argument over.

-I agree that the font is the wrong color. But like I said before, some of my real T206s have very dark brown fonts, making them almost look black.

-Funny corner, in what way? Like it was trimmed? Trimmed does not make it fake.

-The glued edges could indicate it was rebacked, but has anyone actually seen the card in person? Or just from a scan on the internet?

[glynparson]

I have no reason to question Brian Wentz's statement in the book. They are trying to rip someone off plain and simple. And if you can't tell that cards fake in less then 10 seconds I question wether you should be buying T206 cards. The card is not even close besides all the things Barry mentioned the print is the wrong color on the front, it has been artifically aged, and the cropping of the photo is off. This thing is NOT EVEN CLOSE. They have been given enough evidence that this thing is fake so if they are still trying to huckster it they are thieves. By the way I have talked to these buffons at one my previous jobs. So yes I can call them idiots from my experiences with them, and it has absolutely zero to do with race.

[glynparson]

The font is wrong size and color and how do you explain that the photo on the card is cropped different. Do you know these gentlemen if so have them sue me for calling there card a FAKE.

[Brian-Chidester]

Glyn... I don't known them, and I don't understand why you and others keep trying to make this personal. It's as if you are above someone asking you a question.

If it is simply that you are sick of talking about this particular card, by all means, walk away from the keyboard. No one is making you write anything.

This is the first time that I have even seen the card. I've only read about it before.

[ctownboy]

Brian C,

If the card were a REAL and ORIGINAL T206 Honus Wagner, the two scam artists would have had it graded and sold by now.

Look, if I were lucky enough to find a REAL T206 Wagner and were lucky enough to buy it for $1,500 dollars, I would CERTAINLY have it graded. I would do so even if I did NOT have the money and had to borrow from somebody.

As far as not trusting people, I would ALSO borrow the money neccessary to fly to wherever the grading company I chose was located and hand deliver it to them and wait while it was graded.

Since these two clowns are NOT card collectors, WHY don't they do the above and sell the card? What are they waiting for? It seems that some of their jobs is to buy "junk" and turn around and sell it. If they could get $150,000 (or more) in a relatively short amount of time (on a $1,500 "investment") then WHY don't they do it ESPECIALLY in a BAD economy?

The answer is becaues they KNOW the card is a fake and they enjoy the publicity they are getting and being a "victim". If they like the publicity they have gotten so far just think what it would be like if they told their story and it ended up with them being rewarded with a huge pay out in the end?

[rman444]

Here is the HBO video. Cobb says that he found the card at an estate sale in 1984 and it was priced at $2500. Cobb only had $1800 in his pocket and made the offer. He did not know who Honus Wagner was at the time he purchased the card.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/st...ction=magazine

[rman444]

Originally Posted by Brian-Chidester

-Is the font actually not the same letter as other T206s? If so, argument over.

As the movie shows, the font is not the same as on an authentic Wagner. Does this mean that the argument is over?

[drc]

For the record, this board as well as the PSA board made judgment on the card before the race or sex of the owners was known. It wasn’t until later on that their pictures appeared in a newspaper article and people learned the colors of their skin.

[calvindog]

Another freaking racist. Man, this board....

[barrysloate]

The reason that Cobb and Edwards are disliked by this board is because they are black...oops, that's not it. Start again.

What I meant to say is their demeanor towards members of Net54 was really bad. Instead of coming over here and respecting the accumulated knowledge of all the veteran hobbyists, they stubbornly refused to listen to anything we had to say. They felt they knew more than all of us combined. So they rubbed everybody the wrong way.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by rman444

As the movie shows, the font is not the same as on an authentic Wagner. Does this mean that the argument is over?

Actually, yes. And for the record, I compared it to a scan of an authentic PSA 5, and the dimensions of the portrait are prefectly fine. But the font of the Cobb/Edwards version is the exact same font as that of the 1987 Hygrade Toy Co.'s reprint.

If someone can tell me how to post an image, I have pasted up a real Wager next to the Cobb/Edwards Wagner, next to my own scan of the Hygrade reprint.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The reason that Cobb and Edwards are disliked by this board is because they are black...oops, that's not it. Start again.

What I meant to say is their demeanor towards members of Net54 was really bad. Instead of coming over here and respecting the accumulated knowledge of all the veteran hobbyists, they stubbornly refused to listen to anything we had to say. They felt they knew more than all of us combined. So they rubbed everybody the wrong way.

I'm starting to feel like I did the same thing, though by no means was I interested in anything but facts about the dimension, color, font, design and aging of the card. Sorry if feathers were rankled.

[glynparson]

I take this personally as I do shill bidding and card doctors because iIsell sports cards for a living. People like these two give the hobby a bad name and help people like Mr. O'keefe paint the hobby, that I love, in a bad light and that does fire me up. So yes I take it personally because it could have an effect on how i put food on the table and support my wife and daughter and I take that very seriously.

[Brian-Chidester]

Regardless, O'Keefe didn't paint them as anything but what they really were. Should he not investigate a hotly debated specimen of the very card he was writing a book about?

And furthermore, is your hobby above reproach? His book highlighted some major discrepencies in the industry, particularly with regards to high-end memorabilia and grading services, and whether you are a card seller (like yourself), or have invested time, money and energy into collecting (like myself), no one is above these questions.

O'Keefe did the hobby a service, in my opinion.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I take this personally as I do shill bidding and card doctors because iIsell sports cards for a living. People like these two give the hobby a bad name and help people like Mr. O'keefe paint the hobby, that I love, in a bad light and that does fire me up. So yes I take it personally because it could have an effect on how i put food on the table and support my wife and daughter and I take that very seriously.

Glyn, Mike O'Keeffe didn't need any help in painting the business of this hobby in a bad light. Remember, the hobby is good, the scum that infest the hobby are bad.

[Brian-Chidester]

He didn't paint the whole hobby as bad anyway. Plenty of praise was heaped upon the integrity of Rob Lifson, Michael Gidwitz and others. His general disdain seemed to be aimed at Bill Mastro, cunning and charming though he may be. As far as I could see, O'Keefe's second biggest issue was with the whole industry of grading, and he outlined his take on it with plenty of facts and quotes from all sides.

[glynparson]

Jeff, I was referring to those idiots angering me not o'Keefe except in his legitimizing them. And Brian that is my point GO after the bad guys like Bill Mastro by putting in the junk about those to bozos he took credibilty away from what he was saying about the mastro card which is what the book was supposed to be about. the book was supposed to be the story of the PSa 8 Wagner and how it was made. If it were just an expose on the hobby as a whole you could argue those two goofballs story may belong. But it did not belong in a story about how Bill mastro trimmed a card and made it the most famous and valuable in the world.

[Brian-Chidester]

Glyn,

While I partially agree, I think part of writing a good story is giving background on the nature of Mastro's card, which means, explaining what T206 is, who Honus Wagner was, the history of the PSA 8 specimen, the history of PSA as an organization, the bio of each person who bought the 8, and yes, why not cover a potential scam of the same card? I think it showed further how the grading companies operate and the mania surrounding this card.

Again, I wasn't trying to rankle anyone's feathers today. It looked fake to me at first glance, but having just seen it a few hours ago, I thought I'd play devil's advocate and give it the full go-round.

If anyone wishes to see the reprint that I have posted next to the Cobb/Edwards, I'd be happy to post it, just need to know how to do that.

[glynparson]

There are many legitimate things to go after with the grading companies and many people they made very rich by slabbing altered material for them. why put in a b.s. chapter about two crooks again it cuts into his credibility because these 2 guys have none.

[glynparson]

You have proven my point, he legitimized them in your eyes and confused you on the story. PSA and SGC did not grade the card because it was fake. DSL, Bill Mastro, Bill Goodwin, Gary Moser, Anyone who submits that card gets the exact same results period.

[Brian-Chidester]

No, he didn't confuse me. I wasn't saying the Cobb/Edwards card was graded, only that it presented another forum in which to talk about the grading process. Grading is key to O'Keefe and Thompson's book.

My opinion on grading bears no final outcome in the discussion. I make no bones about it... I enjoyed the hobby much more before grading, and have since the late '90s taken in much less of the hobby than before. But grading is here to stay... it is a part of the hobby now. It is worth reporting on. And hopefully those who part-take in this third-party system get some reward out of it, financial or personal.

[mark evans]

While third-party grading has its deficiencies, it is just what the doctor ordered for the Cobb-Edwards card because it establishes authenticity in the minds of most serious collectors. Thus, I agree with ctownboy. There is simply no reason why the owners don't deliver the card to PSA or SGC, invite Mr. O'Keefe and any other interested media representatives to attend, and wait patiently in the office while the card is graded. The notion that the grading company would switch out the card in the course of this process is laughable.

Also, I enjoyed O'Keefe's book immensely (as well as his remarks at our dinner last summer) but agree with those who believe the Cobb-Edwards story doesn't fit. There have been a boatload of bogus Wagners offered for sale over the years. I don't see why this one deserves any special treatment.

Mark

[Leon]

Posting this for Brian C....

[MW1]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Brian- I am not convinced they ever paid $1800 for that thing. Mr. Edwards was a pack rat/junk collector. He claimed he bought it on a whim. He looks like the kind of guy who might pay $5 for a box lot and hope there is something good inside. But laying out $1800 when he said he really had no idea what he was buying? I don't think so.

Barry has hit the nail squarely on its head.

I still remember the two guys (Ray Edwards and John Cobb) from the 1992 Cincinnati show in which they purchased their T206 Wagner. It was from a dealer a few tables down from where I was set up. The dealer had an entire display devoted to reprints and broder cards and he had a fair number of reproduction T206 Wagners. John had purchased one of these cards and put it in a thick, lucite screwdown. He brought the lucite screwdown by my table and asked me what I thought the card was worth. Brian, who was with me, told him, "Nothing, it's a reprint", to which he replied, "Just you wait. It's going to be worth something someday."

I also remember purchasing a good condition (creased and worn) 1965 Topps Joe Namath from the pair of entrepreneurs and spent a short amount of time looking through a box of rough condition 1960s - 70s comic books and low-grade 1960s baseball cards. Incidentally, when they first brought the box of comic books to our table, they told us it was their "million dollar collection". I remember getting a signed receipt from them for the purchase of the Namath. I don't know if I still have it but if I get some time one of these days, I'll look for it and post an image of it if I can find it. This is significant because in Michael O'Keeffe's book, Ray Edwards denies being at this or any other card show.

Some other details: John was a lot thinner back then and Ray had long, straight hair, kind of like Fabio. We reasoned that he must have used a straight iron to get it to look like that, though we never asked him specifically.

One additional thought. Michael O'Keeffe and Teri Thompson do seem to reach a conclusion about the nature of the Cobb/Edwards reprinted T206 Wagner. Here is what they write at the top of page 154 in The Card:

"If Cobb and Edwards were truly a couple of con artists, as so many of the Network54 collectors and dealers said they were, they surely would have ditched their T206 Wagner years ago and moved on to something more profitable."

[teetwoohsix]

Brian-

Do you really think this guy came out of pocket $1800.00 in the mid to late 1980's for a card of a player he knew NOTHING about?Please............the reason people get fired up about this issue is because it is as fake as it gets-if you have been collecting T206 for so long,and have bought many reprints yourself,I do not understand why you keep wanting everyone to point out the obvious to you.

This has nothing to do with race,other than these two scam artists playing the race card.

Maybe you should make them an offer

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Brian-

Do you really think this guy came out of pocket $1800.00 in the mid to late 1980's for a card of a player he knew NOTHING about?Please............the reason people get fired up about this issue is because it is as fake as it gets-if you have been collecting T206 for so long,and have bought many reprints yourself,I do not understand why you keep wanting everyone to point out the obvious to you.

This has nothing to do with race,other than these two scam artists playing the race card.

Maybe you should make them an offer

Clayton... unlike some people who have spent years on this internet site, I'm a relative newcomer. But that doesn't mean I'm new to card collecting. I read O'Keefe and Thompson's book, but like I said above, I never saw a color picture of the Cobb/Edwards card until today.

One, from the start I said it looked fake, but that there were parts of my initial viewing that gave pause. Some of those things being the claim that $1,800 was paid for it, another being that it had better pop than many of the reprints. None of which to say I was convinced.

Secondly, I cannot from a computer scan see things like glued edges, as Barry Sloate pointed out. I have no idea of the card's thickness, nor the years of rankling with this issue, as many of you on a message board have. You might not know this, but the center of the world doesn't revolve around a message board. It's a meeting place for hardcores.

Third, it might be beneath you to go blow by blow over a card that you have obviously identified as fake. I never asked you to be a part of this conversation, nor to post anything, but you don' have to insult my intelligence or devotion for simply holding a conversation.

Lastly, I wouldn't buy that card for for twenty bucks... actually, I might for the sheer novelty of it... which is my main point in all of this... I read Bill Heitman's "The Monster," O'Keefe/Thompson's "The Card" and Scot Reader's "Inside T206" because I enjoy the set, in all its dry history and weird real-life drama. And while I don't think that a card has to be professionally graded to be authentic, their card can be vetted in a few hours and easiy proven false.

Again, with regards to grading, it was inevitable. I saw it coming a million miles away. For some people, it's the last word. Still, there are enough cards that are fakes or have been rebacked or altered in the T206 set alone to tell me that grading does not an authentic card make.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by MW1

Barry has hit the nail squarely on its head.

I still remember the two guys (Ray Edwards and John Cobb) from the 1992 Cincinnati show in which they purchased their T206 Wagner. It was from a dealer a few tables down from where I was set up. The dealer had an entire display devoted to reprints and broder cards and he had a fair number of reproduction T206 Wagners. John had purchased one of these cards and put it in a thick, lucite screwdown. He brought the lucite screwdown by my table and asked me what I thought the card was worth. Brian, who was with me, told him, "Nothing, it's a reprint", to which he replied, "Just you wait. It's going to be worth something someday."

I also remember purchasing a good condition (creased and worn) 1965 Topps Joe Namath from the pair of entrepreneurs and spent a short amount of time looking through a box of rough condition 1960s - 70s comic books and low-grade 1960s baseball cards. Incidentally, when they first brought the box of comic books to our table, they told us it was their "million dollar collection". I remember getting a signed receipt from them for the purchase of the Namath. I don't know if I still have it but if I get some time one of these days, I'll look for it and post an image of it if I can find it. This is significant because in Michael O'Keeffe's book, Ray Edwards denies being at this or any other card show.

Some other details: John was a lot thinner back then and Ray had long, straight hair, kind of like Fabio. We reasoned that he must have used a straight iron to get it to look like that, though we never asked him specifically.

One additional thought. Michael O'Keeffe and Teri Thompson do seem to reach a conclusion about the nature of the Cobb/Edwards reprinted T206 Wagner. Here is what they write at the top of page 154 in The Card:

"If Cobb and Edwards were truly a couple of con artists, as so many of the Network54 collectors and dealers said they were, they surely would have ditched their T206 Wagner years ago and moved on to something more profitable."

This stuff is so interesting. Sad, actually.

For the record, O'Keefe and Thompson's logic crossed my mind too, but of course it is in no way solid deduction. Because if the card sold for anywhere over a quarter of a million dollars, it'd be worth keeping the pursuit alive for 25+ years.

[teetwoohsix]

Brian-

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence-you are obviously a smart guy.
You are correct,you never did ask me to be a part of this conversation-but you are posting on an internet message board,so expect any ol' person to chime in.
You don't need to see the "card's thickness" or the "glued edges" to see the card is a fake-period.
I'm shocked that you would spend so much time playing "devil's advocate" for Cobb/Edwards before you looked at their card.................
I suggested you make an offer on their card because you seem to be trying to convince yourself that maybe,just maybe,it is real.
Have a nice night-

Clayton

[Brian-Chidester]

Hi Clinton... surely things get lost in the translation from our minds to the posting. But, no, I was never trying to wish it or hope it were real.

In reading the old thread on this card, I simply couldn't believe how mad it made people. Since I'd never seen the card in mention, I thought I'd ask, no big deal. And once I saw it, I thought I'd break it down, even if no one else was interested. Trust me, it looked fake to my eyes, but I was just looking for that one thing that said, "Okay, it LOOKS fake, but here's the kicker." Not an eye thing, but something concrete. When I saw that font next to my own 1987 reprint, it was concrete... no T206 was printed with that font.

It might have been indulgent, but with so much fury, I suppose I pushed the issue a bit.

[Brian-Chidester]

Sorry, Clayton, not Clinton...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Brian-Chidester

In reading the old thread on this card, I simply couldn't believe how mad it made people. Since I'd never seen the card in mention, I thought I'd ask, no big deal. And once I saw it, I thought I'd break it down, even if no one else was interested. Trust me, it looked fake to my eyes, but I was just looking for that one thing that said, "Okay, it LOOKS fake, but here's the kicker." Not an eye thing, but something concrete. When I saw that font next to my own 1987 reprint, it was concrete... no T206 was printed with that font.

It might have been indulgent, but with so much fury, I suppose I pushed the issue a bit.

Brian, here is the number one rule of Net 54: if there is evidence of a fraud and it is committed by a friend of a large percentage of the board, then there is a muted, "boys will be boys" response. If there is evidence of a fraud, no matter how small, which is committed by a non-friend then the pitchforks and torches come out.

[teetwoohsix]

No hard feelings Brian,in fact,I admire your drive.
But I,like many,get very offended by these two individuals.They want the meal ticket,and will burn anyone who thinks it may be a real Wagner.Thats the pathetic part.
Regardless of how many veteran collectors,hobbyists,graders,etc. tell them it's fake-they refuse to accept it.Now everyone who says it's fake is a racist.
Look at what they say on page 154-"It's like we won the lottery and we can't cash the ticket"...............that about sums it up.

Take care

Sincerely,Clayton

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brian, here is the number one rule of Net 54: if there is evidence of a fraud and it is committed by a friend of a large percentage of the board, then there is a muted, "boys will be boys" response. If there is evidence of a fraud, no matter how small, which is committed by a non-friend then the pitchforks and torches come out.

Heheh. Good to know...

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

No hard feelings Brian,in fact,I admire your drive.
But I,like many,get very offended by these two individuals.They want the meal ticket,and will burn anyone who thinks it may be a real Wagner.Thats the pathetic part.
Regardless of how many veteran collectors,hobbyists,graders,etc. tell them it's fake-they refuse to accept it.Now everyone who says it's fake is a racist.
Look at what they say on page 154-"It's like we won the lottery and we can't cash the ticket"...............that about sums it up.

Take care

Sincerely,Clayton

Funny thing is, I don't have a drive in this instance. I was just surprised at the rhetoric when I read the old thread, and decided to puh the issue to see what this was all about. I mean, I'd known about their card for several years now, but just hadn't seen it and didn't know why it caused such anger.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by Leon

Posting this for Brian C....

By the way, if anyone didn't already know, the picture Leon posted features (left to right): [1] a PSA graded 5(MC) Wagner; [2] the Cobb/Edwards card; and [3] the 1987 Hygrade Toy Co. reprint.

Obviously the front of 2 and 3 are the same. Likely hypothesis being it is rebacked.

[PolarBear]

Sounds like they thought, as often happens in society, if they cry "racism" people will start throwing money at them.

When that didn't happen, well of course, that's proof it WAS racism all along.

They expected to get preferential treatment, but were treated like any other person with a fake, so again, because they're black, that's obviously proof of racism.

They knew what they we're doing, and tried working the system. It just hasn't paid off for them yet.

This game gets played in many venues. Here's a similar story.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...1?OpenDocument

[barrysloate]

Goofy story. The Bureau of Printing and Engraving never issued a million dollar bill- that information should have been easy enough to find.

Reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons where Mr. Burns had a trillion-dollar bill.

[toppcat]

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner's font should be enough proof. I can't see why people are still talking about this like there is a possibility it's real.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I find it intriguing that he appeared to have no sense of obligation to find it's rightful owner.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by toppcat

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner's font should be enough proof. I can't see why people are still talking about this like there is a possibility it's real.

Beyond being curious about a story that has gotten a lot of press, and a card which I've never seen, the reason I really wanted to talk about it and revel in it a bit was to see if it matched up with any of my T206 Wagner reprints. I'm kind of giddy that it did. I mean, it's staring you right in the face.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I find it intriguing that he appeared to have no sense of obligation to find it's rightful owner.

Because he knew it wasn't real despite the well-meaning, but ignorant, persona the reporter is trying to create.

The game is: Gin up a grievance, real or not, then play the "victim". Society has been trained to be polite and assume everyone has a valid point, so they generally just do what it takes to make someone happy, even if they don't necessarily believe the grievance is justified.

Society has created a system that rewards the perpetually aggrieved.
These are just examples of people testing the boundaries of the system.

[Brian-Chidester]

In the words of Napoleon Bonaparte: "Ten persons who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent."

[drc]

The press has the annoying ability to report a lot about nothing. What a normal person could say up in one sentence (such as "The US government never made a $1 million bill, so obviously the bill can't be real"), a newspaper can write a 5 day expose about. I assume the reporter realized if he summed it up in one sentence there would be no story to report, and his job is to report stories.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by drc

The press has the annoying ability to report a lot about nothing. What a normal person could say up in one sentence (such as "The US government never made a $1 million bill, so obviously the bill can't be real"), a newspaper can write a 5 day expose about. I assume the reporter realized if he summed it up in one sentence there would be no story to report, and his job is to report stories.

That can be true from time to time. I've been assigned stories where they wanted 500 words and I had to stretch to get 250, and then I've had other stories where the argument was so detailed that you couldn't possibly tell it in less than 2,500 words, yet I was told to get it down to 300 words (!!!). Journalism is sometimes an impossible task that manages to meet its deadline each day. For good or for bad.

I like to think of it as comparable to what doctors experience as their residency. Any good writer of non-fiction invariably must go through the growing pains of writing for a newspaper. Long hours, low pay and endless frustration. But in the end, you come out refined and ready to do something bigger. Like a book or a screenplay maybe.

And then you want to get on the best sellerlist and win the nobel prize, and then all will be right with the world. Hehehe.

[calvindog]

I think Mike O'Keeffe will have to stand in line behind Obama for his Nobel Peace Prize. At least Obama doesn't hate cards.