T206 Broad Leaf 460 and Red HINDU "twins"

[tedzan]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm always fascinated by possible T206 "T-brand No-Prints". Simultaneously, I become frustrated
while putting together these sub-sets (i.e., SOVEREIGN, AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, etc.) because you never really know when these
"supposed" No-Prints will pop up in some find. After many years, we can determine with 99.9% certainty which cards are No-Prints.

If my research is correct, the following 28 cards will not be found with a BL 460 back. American Lithographic printed these 28 cards
with UZIT backs and AB 460 backs. But, for whatever reason, it appears that they did not print these cards with BL 460 backs.

There is an exception to this rule. The Cobb (bat off shoulder) has indeed been confirmed with UZIT and AB 460 backs. Also it has
been reported to have a BL 460 back. I haven't seen this F/B combo. Perhaps, a Net54er will confirm this card with a BL 460 back.


Possible BL 460 No-Print cards......

Ames (hands over head)
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

Next, I will post a list of the 350/460 series candidates (not yet confirmed with the BL 460 back) that have a high probability of being
found with a BL 460 back.


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

Ted - How does this mesh with what we think of the sheet sizes for the uncut cards? Should there be another few BL 460's out there somewhere, or were these on smaller than the 12 card strips?

[tedzan]

I still have more stuff to post on these BL 460 cards. Then, maybe we'll be able to arrive at some conclusions.

Perhaps, I'll get around to posting that additional information later this evening.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Judd......et al

Due to some new info that I just received, I am retracting my prior statement regarding the the Cobb (bat off)...........
" There is an exception to this rule. The Cobb (bat off shoulder) has indeed been confirmed with UZIT and AB 460 backs.
Also it has been reported to have a BL 460 back. I haven't seen this F/B combo. Perhaps, a Net54er will confirm this card
with a BL 460 back. "

Therefore, the BL 460 vs AB 460/UZIT "rule" appears to apply across the board for all the 350/460 series cards....and, this
Cobb does not appear to exist with a BL 460 back.

This change will be reflected on my BL 460 (confirmed) list and BL 460 (No Print) list.


TED Z

[tedzan]

An F/B pattern has been observed that indicates T206's that do not exist with American Beauty 460 and UZIT backs
are found with Broad Leaf 460 backs. Conversely (so far) it appears that cards with AB 460 backs and/or UZIT backs
will not be found with BL 460 backs.

Five 350/460 series cards remain that have not been found with AB 460 or UZIT backs; therefore, a good probability
exists that these 5 cards will eventually be found with BL 460 backs......

Chance (yellow portrait).........super print
Chase (blue portrait)..............super print
Chase (dark cap)...................super print
Donlin (bat)
Magee (bat)

Even a higher probability exists that the 3 super-prints will be found with the BL 460 back, since the other 3 super-
prints (Cobb, Evers and Matty) have been confirmed with BL 460 backs.



TED Z

[cfc1909]

There will be more BL 460 cards discovered in the future. Early in 2009 I won a 5 card lot of Broad Leaf 350 backs on ebay and 3 of the 5 cards had NOT yet been confirmed.

New to the hobby were Clymer, Fiene and Mitchell with Broad Leaf 350. I know 350s are a good bit more common but that was 3 unknown fronts in 2009. I know of 2 different Broad Leaf finds not counting the 5 350s from ebay this year. There was a find at the Willow Grove show and another in Boston in 2002 - both of these finds had several BL 460s each.


Here is a Joss from the 2002 Boston find.

BroadLeaf460Joss.jpgBroadLeaf460Jossb.jpg

[tedzan]

JIM......Great BL 460 Joss card.....and, I hope you are right that there will be more BL 460 cards discovered.

Since you mentioned BL 350. If my theory is valid regarding the availability of BL 460 cards relative to their other
existing (or not) T-brand backs, then there's a chance that I may find a Blue portrait Chase with a BL 460 back
to add to my Chase collection of 20 T-brands. I still need a CYCLE 460, DRUM (if it exists), and BL 460 (if it exists).






TED Z

[JerryTotino]

Ted,

To expand on your BL460 "no print" theory for cards not having a confirmed Uzit and/or AB460 B/F combo I noticed that a very large majority (over 83%) of the confirmed BL460's are cards which are also confirmed with a Red Hindu back. I am only referring to Red Hindu cards which are part of the 350/460 series with the exception of the 460-only Kleinow (Boston). As you have already pointed out the Kleinow (Boston) breaks the standard back rules.

In all the cases where a confirmed BL460 back does exist with a Uzit and/or AB460 back the player also has a confirmed Red Hindu:

Baker - Confirmed with AB460 and Red Hindu
Burch (Fielding) - Confirmed with Uzit, AB460 and Red Hindu
Cobb (Red Portrait) - Confirmed with Uzit and Red Hindu
Downey (Bat) - Confirmed with Uzit and Red Hindu
Elberfeld (Fielding) - Confirmed with AB460 and Red Hindu
O'Leary (Hands on knees) - Confirmed with AB460 and Red Hindu
Seymour (Throwing) - Confirmed with Uzit and Red Hindu
Snodgrass (Fielding) - Confirmed with AB460 and Red Hindu

Of the remaining 21 confirmed BL460 subjects which do not exist with either the AB460 or Uzit all except for 5 have been confirmed with a Red Hindu back. These 5 subjects are listed below:

Dougherty (Arm in air)
Mathewson (Dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (Batting)
Rucker (Throwing)

Based on these observations it appears that Red Hindu seems to be tied closely to the BL460 back. 24 of the 29 confirmed BL460's are also confirmed with a Red Hindu back. Assuming this theory to be correct then there is a possibility the 5 players above may be confirmed with a Red Hindu back at some point.

In addition, extending this theory to the remaining "super-prints" and remaining confirmed 350/460 series Red Hindu's the following cards may also be found with BL460 at some point:

Bender (No trees)
Chase (Blue Portrait)
Chase (Dark Cap)
Cobb (Bat off) - As noted this might exist, but waiting for additional confirmation
Donlin (Bat)
Magee (Bat)
Manning (Pitch)
Pfeister (Throwing)
Wagner (Bat/Right)

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Jerry