Send lawyers, guns and money

botn · #1 02-06-2010, 01:47 PM

Doubt this situation will have a favorable outcome for Legendary, SGC or Dave by the time it is all over. There is a reason that Mastro continued to loan money to Dave well after he proved he was not able or not willing to pay it back. It would be nice to have a more information on that, at the very least.

As far as what Barry said it is time for the FBI to take a closer look at these grading companies. It is obvious that not all cards are held to the same standards. Some submitters have advantages or opportunities which are not available to the general public. It is not always by accident or inexperience that we see so many altered or over graded cards in holders.

barrysloate · #2 02-06-2010, 01:54 PM

To continue my point, if it is discovered that employees of an auction house are bidding in their company's auctions, everyone on the board is up an arms and crying foul.

So why is it any different if graders are caught buying and selling baseball cards? As far as I'm concerned, it is potentially a much worse offense. An auction employee bidding with his own company may simply wish to add a piece to his collection. Not the worst transgression in the world.

But if a grader can assign a grade to his own cards, and then sell them himself or have somebody else do it, the potential for fraud is off the charts. As far as I'm concerned, if I owned a grading company and I caught one of my graders selling cards, I would fire him on the spot.

Jim VB · #3 02-06-2010, 02:06 PM

Barry,

I hear you but I don't think it's likely that we're going to find publishers, graders, or auctioneers, who have zero interest in the hobby.

barrysloate · #4 02-06-2010, 02:15 PM

I say if you want to be a grader you have to sign a contract which forbids you from buying and selling baseball cards while you are employed with the company, and that goes for everyone associated with it, from the top down. If buying and selling is your preference, then you need to find another job. You just can't do both.

Abravefan11 · #5 02-06-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I say if you want to be a grader you have to sign a contract which forbids you from buying and selling baseball cards while you are employed with the company,

I can understand why you would think this is a good idea but I find it a bit unreasonable. I don't know how someone could attain the level of expertise required to be a grader and then be OK with not being able to buy cards.

I could be wrong but I doubt the level of pay would out weigh the love of cards.

Fred · #6 02-06-2010, 02:53 PM

Barry,

I agree employees of grading companies not engaging in the selling of cards but I figure it should be ok for the employees to buy them. To me a conflict arises when employees of these grading companies begin to submit their own cards for encapsulation. Someone mentioned earlier that "if" this was the case, then there better be some very good rules and procedures in place for that situation. Overall, I wouldn't agree with employees of grading companies grading their own material or any material that belongs to someone that they know. There's just too much temptation and too much at stake in the market.

Just out of curiosity, what's the difference in price between a common T206 graded 7 and 8?

barrysloate · #7 02-06-2010, 02:54 PM

It's reasonable to assume that many of the graders were hobbyists, that's a fair point. But once they take the job of grader, they have to be prepared to give that up. They can keep their collections but they should not be active while they are grading other people's cards.

There are so many industries where people are forced to divest themselves of certain stocks and other holdings for a specified period of time while employed at their jobs. I do not take the position of grader lightly. They have a tremendous amount of power and influence, and can easily be enticed to give out special favors to major submitters and auction houses. I really think that industry needs to be policed better. And from what I've heard through the grapevine, law enforcement has an eye on them.

Do you understand how much money can be made by making a 7 a 7.5, or a 7.5 an 8? And all a grader has to do is create a new label and somebody has just made a boatload of money. And don't you think that's going on all the time? I do. Why wouldn't it? Can you find an easier way to make money than just bumping a card a half grade?

Ill say it again: the grading industry needs to be policed, and very closely at that.

Robextend · #8 02-06-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I say if you want to be a grader you have to sign a contract which forbids you from buying and selling baseball cards while you are employed with the company, and that goes for everyone associated with it, from the top down. If buying and selling is your preference, then you need to find another job. You just can't do both.

How about something along the lines that if you work for a 3rd party grader you can not have your cards graded? There might be very minimal conflict and of course there are plenty of ways around that, but I think it would be near impossible for someone that much involved in the hobby to just not collect at all.

barrysloate · #9 02-06-2010, 02:59 PM

Rob- that sounds good but a rogue grader can just give his cards to a friend to submit under his account. Then the grader overgrades the material, the friend sells it, and they split the profit. The whole thing stinks.

How do you police that? I don't know.

bijoem · #10 02-06-2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I say if you want to be a grader you have to sign a contract which forbids you from buying and selling baseball cards while you are employed with the company, and that goes for everyone associated with it, from the top down. If buying and selling is your preference, then you need to find another job. You just can't do both.

Barry.....

If that was the rule for grading companies.... I would suggest the same rules for auction houses.

I think 'auction house' - owned lots opens a tremendous path toward potential conflict of interest.

Yet.... I believe most auction houses (even the ones I would trust most) have owned lots in their own auction.

With the proper transparency and the proper checks/balances in place - I don't think this rule would be necessary for either graders or auction houses.

botn · #11 02-06-2010, 03:35 PM

I think it is important to distinguish between a grader, owner or president of a grading company who collects, and to what degree, and one who is an active dealer selling hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to the public. In one of those scenarios, if something is happening "after dark" then the public is really not so much at risk. In the other scenario, if there is foul play, the public is directly impacted.

There are no checks and balances that we know of. What prevents someone with keys to the establishment from walking in after hours, say, or on the weekend (hypothetically speaking, of course) and holdering a few dozen cards? How long would that take and who would know?

barrysloate · #12 02-06-2010, 03:36 PM

Joe- I agree with your thinking and I will tell you that when I ran auctions I owned many of the lots. But here was my predicament: as a small auction house it was becoming increasingly difficult to get consignments, especially high end ones. The only way to round out my auctions and give them some pizzazz was to put in my own material. If I relied entirely on consignments, I was basically done. A big auction house doesn't have to worry about that, but I did. It was sink or swim.

As it turned out, I sank, but that's a story for another day.

bijoem · #13 02-06-2010, 03:42 PM

Barry - the hobby misses your auctions for sure.

To be truthful -

I don't have any problem with an auction house owning lots - but I do believe those auction houses should disclose the ownership in their catalog.

I also don't have a problem with employees of a grading company owning cards. I would just like for there to be checks and balances to be in place to ensure that the graders don't know who the submitters are.

Lets face it....
you have to trust the employees in any auction house / or any grading company. If insiders are looking to defraud people - they sure have easy access to the ways to do so (no matter what rules are in place).