How Important Is Provenance To You?

[Leon]

For me the higher the grade of pre-war card the more important the provenance is. Ask any collector that has been collecting cards for 25-30 yrs and they will tell you that there is no way this many "minty" looking cards were around back in the day. Of course the argument about how the prices have brought them out comes up, and this and that, and....more excuses and theories. If your provenance leads you to "rawoysterman" on ebay, or Ohio in general, you might want to run the other way . For me, provenance on mid grade cards isn't all that important. Provenance on memorabilia and autographs is extremely important....all imho....regards

[scgaynor]

Provenance will mean more as the hobby matures. This is still a young hobby relative to other areas of collecting (coins, stamps, etc) where provenance actually means something. Right now provenance is more of a curiosity, but as technology gets better and items are easier to fake and alter, Provenance will be key.

Scott

[bijoem]

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

[kkkkandp]

There might be a certain novelty to being able to say that a hobby pioneer owned the cards before me (I have a couple of Old Judges with Buck Barker's chicken-scratch notes on the back), but that can work to the detriment of the value of the card as well (for those people who care about those things). In addition to writing on the card it was not uncommon for some of those guys to trim them to fit into "standard" holders, so the purists of today might even shun those items.

[birdman42]

To me, provenance is like curb appeal on a card. It might not make me want to pay any more for the item, but it might lead me to choose the one with provenance over one without. (Assuming that there's more than one of the item to begin with.)

If you're talking about a "name" collection, such as Carter or Barker, then the provenance will stick with the item. But, to use the Johnnyharmonica example, the provenance can disappear pretty quickly. What's Toby's buyer of those '34 Goudeys going to say? I bought this from a guy who bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy... Right.

When I was in the coin business in the early '80s, Bowers & Ruddy brought the Garrett collection to market. There was a huge to-do, including a pair of books using the collection to trace the history of US coins. There have been many other named collections of either coins or stamps. While much gets made of the high dollar value realized at auction, lots of that value comes from what it is, and not very much comes from the provenance.

Yes, I know our Howe McCormick collector is willing to pay a little extra to get those cards. And, as some others have said, provenance might give you a little comfort when it comes to authenticity--for which you may be willing to pay a premium. Still, in the end, provenance is a good conversation starter, but you can't really take it to the bank.

Bill

[drc]

For many non-card items, provenance is very important. For example, if a game used jersey has documented provenance it came from the team, that helps prove authenticity and raises the price.

[barrysloate]

I viewed the Garrett Collection in person and held one of the Brasher Dubloons...and I have a first edition of David Bowers book about the collection.

[ullmandds]

Provenance with most mainstream cards is slightly appealing to me. As a historian...I love to research things...and owning cards once owned/collected by the founding fathers of this great hobby certainly has appeal to me. Similarly...I love seeing and holding cards that are fresh to the hobby. With autographs this is of paramount importance...but I don't pay for autographs!

I may pay a premium for cards slabbed w/Buck Barker or others' names...certainly not Mr. X though! I much prefer raw cards to slabs anyway...and without the slab...the provenance disappears!

[Orioles1954]

Anyone is invited to view the illustrious "Feagin" collection anytime they're in Central Maryland. Will only take 2-3 minutes of your time

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by bijoem

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

It makes hardly a difference to me as well.

[Rob D.]

When I bought my E93 Lajoie from Josh K., he offered me an example that was graded a bit higher and was centered slightly better, but I wanted the (technically) lower-condition one because it was slabbed as being from the Nagy Collection. So when the provenance traces back to one of the hobby pioneers, it means something to me.

Following up on what Leon implied regarding provenance being able to provide assurance that cards haven't been altered, I have a beautiful T206 from the Lionel Carter collection (below) that SGC deemed trimmed. I know there were a number of T206s from his collection that also were graded that way. Of course that doesn't mean he trimmed them, and the likely scenario is he received them that way, but it serves as a caution that provenance — no matter where it leads to — isn't a 100 percent guarantee of much of anything.

[oldjudge]

Used to be very important to me, but now I drive to Boston through Hartford so I bypass it entirely.

[Bamacollection]

SGC carries all the "provenance" I need. Although, I do have a couple cards from Nagy and Carter collections, I wouldn't hesitate to crack them out if I thought they would upgrade. The "Galloway" collection is the only collection to me.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I think it's really special to get a collection straight from the person who bought them in packs or inherited them from family untouched by anyone else. I was lucky to get a 34 Goudey collection from an old man who bought them as a kid and I kept thinking about how he kept them all those years and then I got them and no one else ever touched them, until I sold them all to Toby.

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by bijoem

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

I agree 100%

[Jay Wolt]

Here's one of my favorite cards w/ provenance

[thegashousegang]

For me (a generally low to mid-grade collector), part of collecting is the 'travel' a card or item takes before it arrives in my hands. Since I can't afford high grade, I'm not overly concerned about a card being altered...unless it's clear that it has been altered only to fetch a higher price. It would depend on who did own a card previously to warrant a higher price. But for other items, like postcards, I really get a kick out of purchasing something with some handwritten notes on the back (stats, notes about a game, etc).

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by bijoem

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

+100...often overblown, overhyped, and over-premiumed!

[jmk59]

I think there are two different kinds of provenance. One is the "noted collector" provenance where someone wants a card b/c it is identified as having been in the collection of Nagy, Carter, etc. It doesn't really matter where the cards were *before* getting to the famous collector (note that some of these famous collections included trimmed cards). What matters is that the card can be conclusively identified as once having belonged to a famous collector.

This kind of provenance matters to some, not others.

The second kind of provenance is anonymous but may tell you something about the state, history or path of the card. You can have a raw card that has been through a long chain of "bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy", as noted above. Or you can have a card or collection that has been in a book on the end table or desk of someone who got it from his dad who personally collected the cards as a smoker at the turn of the century. So you know that the card has had two owners and is probably not trimmed (unless obviously to fit in a scrapbook or something).

I think people do care about the anonymous provenance that is short and easy to know b/c there are only one or two people in the whole chain going back to manufacture.

So ... I guess the answer to the question also depends on what kind of provenance is in play.

Joann

[barrysloate]

Joann nailed it and I think the original post was not about which famous collector may or may not have been the previous owner of a card. The more important provenance concerns original owner collections that are fresh to the market, and therefore are most likely not tampered with. Every collector should be willing to pay a premium for collections like those.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Joann nailed it and I think the original post was not about which famous collector may or may not have been the previous owner of a card. The more important provenance concerns original owner collections that are fresh to the market, and therefore are most likely not tampered with. Every collector should be willing to pay a premium for collections like those.

I only pay premiums for penultimate cards!!!

On a more serious note it was really fun and interesting to go through the collection of Trucker Boy's grandad's 750+ cards that were collected in the 1910's. Basically, since they were inherited from his grandad, I was getting them from the person who collected them out of the packs and original venues. Going over them with Mark M., as I opened each package, I was being told what to look for. There were different groups of cards collected together and these fit that mark perfectly.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bijoem

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

I beg to differ. I know that if a card is previously owned by Joe D there is a high likelihood I will want it.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I beg to differ. I know that if a card is previously owned by Joe D there is a high likelihood I will want it.

I knew you would come around!

[oaks1912]

As Leon suggested above, finding one true "outside the hobby" card collection is an eye opener. Finding three such collections is more valuable than a pallet of SMR's. In many cases it doesn't so much matter who has handled them before as much as who HASN'T handled them before ....... With memorabilia, provenance is helpful, but not definitive. One need only visit the GUU Forum to understand the problems associated with many "Team issued" COA's. Experience and a network of knowledgeable, trustworthy and reliable friends is your best bet in any collecting field.....

[jcmtiger]

Certainly buying a collection such as yours would be easier than buying cards on ebay that have traveled through multiple owners. I bought many collections in the 70's and 80's boxed up, in metal cabinets or in dresser drawers. I was pretty certain that these cards were not messed with, trimmed, colored or whatever happens sometimes. And as Leon points out, there were not that many Mint cards in those collections.

Joe