Whitey Herzog and Doug Harvey elected to the Hall

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

so far as early players...do you guys have anyone you have a soft-spot for...without doing due dilligence, just throwing a couple off the top of my head from reputation, I sort of like Turkey Mike Donlin and Larry Doyle. I think they fit right in with many of the early selections.....an argument could easily be made that after 80 years we have cleared pretty much everyone off the shelf who truly belongs....

Turkey Mike was one of the greatest players of his era -- but his various leaves from baseball sort of watered down his claim. Numbers and reputation alone do not save the day. For example, I just read an article from 1913 in which Frank Chance, then-manager of the Yankees noted that the Tigers wanted to trade for Chase. Chance remarked that he insisted upon Ty Cobb and Sam Crawford in exchange; he wouldn't accept just one of the players.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...639C946296D6CF

[barrysloate]

Giving up Cobb and Crawford to get Hal Chase...sounds like the kind of trade the Mets would make.

[howard38]

I agree that Travis should be inducted and I made a post about it on the old board while he was still alive. He lost nearly four full seasons to WW2 and when he returned he was a mere shadow of the player he had been though he was only 31. He went from batting .359 in his final year before the war to being a .250 hitter in 1946 and finished a couple of years later. He nearly had his feet amputated due to frostbite he suffered during the Battle of the Bulge but he never blamed that for his failure to perform when he returned to baseball.

[Misunderestimated]

Herzog's numbers as a manager make him a decent but not great selection. Whether its true or not Herzog also always seemed to be (if you will forgive the expression) "adding more value" than his peers. Or at least that was his reputation. The same goes for LaRussa currently (but not with the A's) and Billy Martin historically. They were/are Managers who won with less talent and more guile. Again, I have no idea if that's really true but that has been their reputation. Yankee Managers like Joe McCarthy, Casey Stengel , Joe Torre had great teams -- or more accurately great groups of individuals -- and managed to get them to win. This is no small feat either especially when the talented players bring all kinds of issues to the table --> see Rodriguez, Alex, Ruth, Babe.

As to Marvin Miller's snub : My understanding of the mission of the HOF would virtually require his induction. Like it or not, his impact on the game has been enormous. Personally I appreciate his work and believe that the management voters on these special committees have really done the Hall of Fame a dis-service by not voting him in while populating the HOF with more owners (Dreyfus, O'Malley etc) and a commissioner who was at best mediocre. The question is becoming which Commissioners should not be in the HOF since every Commissioner up to Kuhn is now inducted. How about Ueberoth (sp), Giamatti, Vincent and (yes) Bud Seelig. My guess is that Selig will ultimately stumble into the Hall as a result of his long tenure in the office and be credited (rightly or wrongly) with the game's growth and prosperity during this time.
The permissive PED "Chicks Dig the Long Ball" culture of the late 90's and early 00's will keep a lot of players out of the HOF, but not Bud.

Hard to comment inteligently on the umpire selection. Froemming's reputation was great and given the current Umpires in the HOF, he umpired during a period of time that is insufficiently represented (by umpires). If he was in fact the best then he belongs unless we want to toss out some -- or all -- of the Umps currently enshrined. Based on this rationale Hank O'Day warrants induction too, but his legacy is somewhat tainted by his call on 9/23/1908 (Merkle out).

Given the politics of the voting (ie who the actual voters are), I was most surprised that Bill White was not chosen. He was a former player (good not great) who became the first minority League President (NL 1989-94) and he is still alive to enjoy his induction. When I was trying to figure out which of the candidates were most likely to gain induction from this group for purposes of my HOF collection, I thought that White and Froemming were the only surefire candidates.

[paul]

I was guessing Herzog, and picked up his 57 Topps, 60 Leaf, and 62 Topps for about 4 or 5 dollars each. I suspect they are still available for about the same price, I can't really say it was a brilliant move on my part.

[tbob]

Bowie Kuhn in the Hall and Turkey Mike Donlin not in is an example of just how flawed the Hall of Fame voting and admission procedures really are.
Donlin should be in, Kuhn and Selig should be in only if a special "Wing of Infamy" is created.

[Misunderestimated]

Donlin may be better than Kuhn or Selig as a HOFer but I don't think his "case" is as strong as some of the other early players on the outside -- Bill Dahlen and Deacon White head the list for me with Bob Caruthers and Harry Stovey close behind.