New evidence of T206 expanded 350/460 series cards

[tedzan]

Consider the following......

In the Summer of 1910, the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (with FRAME) cards were first launched....192 subjects are found
with this back (including the 6 super-prints).
Is there a possible correlation between the light green color of the backs of the 66 cards in the SOVEREIGN "350/460"
series and the light green color of the FRAME design on the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 cards ?

Check out the scans of these backs....Am I imagining this, or were the light green SOVEREIGN backs printed with same
green ink as the AB frame design and the "Base Ball Series....350 Subjects" lettering ?

Continuing......however, the "AMERICAN BEAUTY CIGARETTES" lettering appears to be somewhat similar to the forest
green ink on the SOVEREIGN 350 card of Irv Young. I may be wrong, but I think the AB 350 backs were printed with 2
different shades of green.

Scot

If I recall correctly from your timeline, the general 350/460 cards were first launched Summer/Fall 1910.


Jamie

I like your theory that possibly explains how (or why) certain 350 series cards were selected to continue into the 460
series. However, Joe Doyle (intended 350/460 subject) appears to be an exception to this rule. Since the established
thinking on Doyle's card was that he was printed in the initial 350 series press run (re..Doyle error card).







TED Z

[tedzan]

Responding to your......

"One thing that puzzles me is why the six 350/460 superprints are found with the apple green Sovereign 350 back
rather than the forest green Sovereign 350 back. As you know, the superprints were generally printed with backs
otherwise exclusive tothe 350-only subject group (American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights,
Cycle 350). And they were generally NOT printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350/460 RP subject group
(American Beauty 350 No Frame). We would thus expect the superprints to be found with the forest green Sove-
reign 350--not the apple green variety. Yet this does not appear to be the case. Any thoughts on this apparent
anomaly?"

Here goes my "wild" imagination again: the apple green backs found on the 6 super-prints with Sovereign 350 backs
is indicative of American Litho's initial decision to extend these six (very popular guys) into subsequent (460) series
and subsequent issues (T213's, T214 and T215).

The one puzzling factor regarding the 6 super-prints that bugs me is....why two Chase poses ?

Instead of the Chase (dark cap), they should have Tinker's portrait card.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Your story........
"I still have hopes that someone will rip the walls out of a 1912 built house someday and find a few dozen sheets
acting as insulation. That happened with some movie posters in PA years ago and they were worth a fortune."

reminded me of........
My experience back in 1985. Bob, owner of a BB card shop in Cherry Hill (NJ), called me with an exciting find. I im-
mediately left work for an extended "lunch hour" and drove to his shop. I was amazed to see 8 original 32-image
tin printing plates of the entire 1954 Bowman set. Actually, the 54B set comprises of 224 cards, so 7 of these com-
plete plates made up the set. And, there was an extra 32-image plate. On this extra plate of 32 images was the
famous (and scarce) #66 Ted Williams image.

So, there were 2 such plates in this original find with the #66 Ted Williams image. So much, for the myth back in
the early 1980's that this card's plate was "broken".

Bob acquired these 54B plates from a nearby neighbor who had moved into a home and found them attached to the
attic rafters in order to seal a leaking roof.



TED Z

[jimonym]

Dave,
I have a couple uncut sheets of Piedmont cigarette boxes (circa 1915-1920) that the seller told me were found in a old house under three layers of flooring. Usually I'm skeptical, but in this case I actually believed him. So, I guess, always be attentive when doing renovations. Maybe one year an uncut sheet of T206s will walk into the National...stranger things have happened.

Ted,
You raise some interesting points. Let me think about it and try to pull some thoughts together.

[cfc1909]

there are several players in the 206 set with 4 different cards but only the prince got FIVE.

[tedzan]

Could you please describe your uncut sheets of Piedmont cigarette boxes. Are they labeled L & M, Factory 42 N.C.....and,
what are the dimensions of these sheets ?

Also, how many Piedmont packs are printed on a sheet ? ?


Thanks,

TED Z

[sreader3]

Lee,

I am aware that the superprints come with Cycle 350 and Cycle 460.

What I was trying to say is that the superprints are possible with the four backs that otherwise only appear on 350-only subjects: AB350 with frame, BL 350, CB and Cycle 350.

And the superprints are NOT possible with the one back that only appears on 350/460 RP subjects: AB350 no frame.

That is why I am surprised that the superprints are possible with the apple green Sovereign 350 (which otherwise appears only on 350/460 RP subjects) and are not, as far as we know, possible with the forest green Sovereign 350 (which appears only on 350-only subjects).

Scot





Scot

[jimonym]

Ted,
Below is a picture of one of the sheets. They measure roughly 17 inches by 33 inches. They are for Factory 240, 1st District of Pennsylvania. The factory predominantly produced little cigars, and Napoleon and Recruit brand little cigars from that factory were for a time packaged with T207 cards. But all that was before these sheets were produced, because they are definitely post-ATC dissolution. That is obvious because of the Liggett and Myers designation on the packages. They are 10-count cardboard slide and shell type.

[teetwoohsix]

I'm trying to keep up with this,and I just want to make sure I'm following-the six cards with the Sovereign 460 backs(Chance,Chase portrait,Chase dark cap,Mathewson dark cap,Evers,and Cobb portrait red background)are more scarce than the same cards with the 350 and the 350/460 Sovereign backs?By the way Ted,you are tremendous with the detail-very impressive!!!

[ethicsprof]

Ted Z,
I was in good shape and not quite as dizzy as Prof. Blumenthal until
this discussion of the 4X12 array of Piedmont packs(which by the way
are beauts).
I was thinking that your discovery of the the number 6 as a key code for the
T206, given its consistent and persistent divisability factor, would lead us to
a discussion of the number 6 being the key number for the T206 printed sheets of cards.
Are you thinking the packs play a key role somehow or was this just an interesting excursus.
great work Ted et al
Best,
barry

[tedzan]

You understand this scenario correctly....the 6 super-prints are significantly more difficult to find with the SOVEREIGN 460 backs
than the SOVEREIGN 350 backs.

I can say this from my experience in putting together an all-SOVEREIGN set. Especially, the Red Cobb. It took me 4 years to find
this card with the SOVEREIGN 460 back.

Only 4 such red Cobb's have shown up in recent surveys of over 20,000 randomly sampled T206 cards.


Regards,

TED Z

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Responding to your......

"As you know, the superprints were generally printed with backs
otherwise exclusive to the 350-only subject group (American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights,
Cycle 350). And they were generally NOT printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350/460 RP subject group."

Unless I am reading this wrong the addition of Cycle backs should not be included since all the SP come with 350 and 460 backs.

Lee