Who was the better pitcher?

[Baseball Rarities]

tbob, while the Snodgrass game is famous, I think that Mathewson, himself, is most remembered for the three shutouts that he threw in the 1905 World Series - the most dominating pitching performance in a Series ever.

[tbob]

Kevin, I agree and disagree. The 3 shutouts in a World Series will never be equalled, especially now in these days of 4 man playoff rotations and closers. Unbelievable record even in the deadball era. But, his two most critical games were the Snodgrass muff in the 9th inning of the 7th game of the Series (I believe also he and Chief Meyers failed to catch an easy pop up which would have rendered the Snodgrass muff moot) and failing to win against 3 Finger Brown in their 1908 one game playoff which prevented perhaps the greatest Giants team of all time from playing in the World Series. Matty had a great career and more than his share of glory but these 2 games were arguably the two biggest games of his career and easily the most bitter to swallow for The Christian Gentleman and his fans. One wasn't his fault, one was, but still the two biggest games of a career filled with many big games.

[SteveMitchell]

According to the record, Mathewson (career 1900-1916) was a great guy and a great pitcher. But my vote as to the greater would go to Alexander.

While pitching for the Giants, Matty had excellent support at the bat and in the field and the New York staff also included Iron Man McGinnity (1902-08) and Rube Marquard (1908-15), not to mention Red Ames (1903-13) and Dummy Taylor (1900-08).

At a Midwest Sports Collectors Show/Plymouth, MI about 25 years ago I picked up a copy of a little self-published book titled Kings of the Mound by Ted Oliver. The idea behind the book was to evaluate each pitcher by the quality of support he enjoyed from his team against other pitchers of the day. Mr. Oliver also ranked pitchers on an All-Time list.

From Ted Oliver's All-Time list in Kings of the Mound (1947):

1. Walter Johnson.......... 89,345 career points (89.345 wins)
2. Grover Alexander........ 83,636 career points (83.636 wins)
3. Cy Young.................. 82,624 career points (82.624 wins)
4. Christy Mathewson...... 59,143 career points (59.143 wins)

I found (still do) the book to be of great interest. Baseball hobbyists and Hall of Fame bugs (like me) might also be interested to know others who rank well under Oliver's Weighted Rating System.

As one might expect, All-Time rankings for the next few included Hall of Famers exclusively: #5 Grove, 6 Griffith, 7 Lyons, 8 Vance and 9 Nichols - but several surprises, I think.

At numbers 10 and 11 are two NON-Hall of Famers: Jess Tannehill and Wes Ferrell, respectively.

Then, 12 Bob Feller (still active for several more years when this second edition of Kings of the Mound was published. Another NON-HoF'er Urban Shocker fittingly came in #13 followed by yet another HOF reject, Eddie Rommel. Carl Hubbell ranked at #15.

Three of the final five comprising the All-Time top 20 are also NON-Hall members: #16 through 18 being Nap Rucker, Ted Bretenstein and Claude Passeau, in order. Numbers 19 and 20 were a pair of Hall of Fame White Stockings, Red Faber and Ed Walsh.

(Since Passeau was still active for one more season and posted a lowly 2-6 mark that year, he doubtless dropped down the list - probably several spots. So, at #21 (really #20 after the '47 season) was Gettysburg Eddie Plank.)

Finally, some other NON-Hall of Famers who did well under Oliver's system are: Red Lucas (#25), Jack Taylor (26), Hippo Vaughn (27), Ed Pfeffer (29) and Slim Salee (30).

Sorry for the length. I got carried away....

Bottom line for me is that Alexander pitched for generally poorer clubs and into a hitter's era for the latter portion of his career. (All the while dealing with monstrous personal difficulties.)

Steve