Who was the better pitcher?

[tbob]

Walter Johnson

[Matt]

These kind of questions usually need refinement; not that I have an answer either way, but as Chris brought out so nicely, are you asking who had a better career, or in his prime, who was the better pitcher?

[T2069bk]

only because he was a Cub!!!!

[tbob]

Both were great pitchers, but sadly Matty is remembered as losing the two crucial games in his life, the "makeup game" against the Cubs which decided the pennant on the last day in 1908 and the infamous "Snodgrass' Muff game" which decided a World Series. Pete is most remembered for striking out Tony Lazerri of the Yanks with the bases loaded and two outs in the ninth inning and winning a World Series. Old Pete was hung over from a drinking bout the night before, celebrating after winning Game 6 with a stellar performance and never gave a thought to pitching the next day. One Yankee fan of the day said it best when he said he still remembered that dusty, drunk old man slowly wandering in from the bullpen still wearing his jacket and snatching away victory from the jaws of defeat, pitching on nothing but guts and guile to face one batter and achieve glory.

[GrayGhost]

Hmmm, I don't think there were two outs in the ninth, from what I recall reading in Glory of their times. Didnt Babe Ruth get caught stealing to end that game and the series? I thought that Lazzeri was the 7th. If Im incorrect, I stand corrected.

[FrankWakefield]

I think Scott's right.

In that Carmichael book about My Greatest Day in Baseball my recollection is that for Hornsby it was tagging Ruth out at second base to end the game and win the Series for the Cardinals in 1926. Everyone was surprised that Babe was going, which may be why he did it.

[tbob]

Scott, you're right, it was the bottom of the 7th, not the 9th. Pete retired all 7 batters he faced, getting the save. Frank is right also that Babe walked and then was thrown out trying to steal 2b so technically he retired all 7 batters although it took a pitch to the 8th batter to throw out the Babe. B. Meusel was up when Babe took off with Lou Gehrig on deck.
The rest of the post still stands though, the great quote, and Pete's shining moment.

[Bamacollection]

Based on Jacksons' research, Matty is the Man.

[sagard]

Normally a 0.43 difference in ERA would end the discussion immediately. However Mathewson pitched a good chunk of his career in the really dead ball era (before 1909), then finished before the live ball era took off. Alexander on the other hand started in 1911 and finished in the late '20s when the live ball era had clearly been established.

Mathewson was a bit better at striking guys out, but Alexander pitched 400 more innings over his career.

I'm going with Alexander in an extremely close call, but will certainly listen to statistics based (specifically park factors) arguments that would push Mathewson over the top.

[Touch'EmAll]

Jeez, I am not with my "Ruth Biography" book for specific reference, but...

In 1914 and 1915, Ruth and Walter Johnson went head-to-head something like 5 or 6 times. I remember Ruth won all but one game, maybe won them all.

And Walter Johnson is supposed to be tops on the all-time best pitcher list, hmm?

[fkw]

W.Johnson #1 easily

#2 is Alexander IMO...... mainly because he played for less talented teams overall and had less time in the dead ball era (pitchers era)

[Touch'EmAll]

1915 Beat W. Johnson 4-3
1916 April 17, beat W. Johnson 5-1
1916 June 1, beat W. Johnson 1-0
1916 Aug 15, beat W. Johnson 1-0 in 13 innings
1916 Sep 9, beat W. Johnson 2-1 for 5th in row over Johnson
1916 Sep 12, lost to W. Johnson 3-4

wow.

[Tcards-Please]

Backstroke, not to take anything away from Ruth, but in all fairness, Johnson didn't have the team support that Ruth did with Boston. Three of those games were either 1-0 or 2-1. To hold the 1916 world series champions to a total of 4 runs in 3 games is an indication of what type of pitcher Johnson was. Holding the Senators to 1 run isn't much of an accomplishment. I'm sure that had Johnson played for Detroit, there could possibly be a much different result.