THE MARKEL REPORT: Are Graded Baseball Cards Being “Juiced” (Aesthetically Enhanced)?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It has always concerned me that so many high grade slabbed cards appear slightly short in the holder, as do the ones in Dan's post. For years I have listened to BS from dealers about cutting variances, natural shorts, etc. I increasingly believe that if a card has that telltale short look in a holder, that's because it probably has been microtrimmed.

[Rich Klein]

PSA has already poofed a link to this thread on their board. Geez, now I'd really love to hear the rest of the story -- sure sounds suspicious to me

Regards
Rich

P.S. And that's why this board is so good; in that there is very little censorship and almost no threads are banned or poofed. I'd love to hear an explanation as to why this thread left PSA so soon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rich, I don't think there is any conspiracy theory here, my guess is that PSA doesn't deem it to be in its self interest to have discussions on its own board questioning its own product.

[calvindog]

Somewhere in California Joe Orlando is pressing the "poof" button on his computer trying to make this thread go away. Alas, this is not his board.

[Rich Klein]

Trust me on this one; as an avid reader of the PSA boards; the person Markel is talking about is not allowed to be discussed on the boards. My instinct; tells me it's something more; something similar to WIWAG.

A really good company does not practice suppression; instead; it lets these stories play out their courses. (It's called dropping off the front page )

I will say; in my years at Beckett; almost no thread ever left the message boards; even when we were all called "Idjits" or worse. That was something I was always impressed with Beckett and the moderators

Rich

[calvindog]

If PSA is deleting threads relating to any discussion of Scott Susor, perhaps such actions suggest that Susor once worked at PSA. Anyone know? Joe, you're reading this thread, care to chime in?

[Anthony S.]

Things that make you say "hmm".....http://www.sgccard.com/boards/ubbthr...1709859&page=6

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Trust me on this one; as an avid reader of the PSA boards; the person Markel is talking about is not allowed to be discussed on the boards. My instinct; tells me it's something more; something similar to WIWAG.

A really good company does not practice suppression; instead; it lets these stories play out their courses. (It's called dropping off the front page )

I will say; in my years at Beckett; almost no thread ever left the message boards; even when we were all called "Idjits" or worse. That was something I was always impressed with Beckett and the moderators

Rich

please rich get real....what happened to the Brady Rookie threads...the card that went from 8.5 to 9.5 by getting shorter? wont mention names here but most know who im talking about......

beckett killed their board on purpose cause they saw more and more of those...

[sox1903wschamp]

Dan M: Great work and I appreciate it. This one is exposed and maybe it will throw a scare into others who alter cards. I think this thread has more merit then the Towle thread who openly admits to his practices. Towle takes stuff off and that of course is open to debate but this is plain deceitful and it might give everyone who collects slabs a trip the the medicine chest for some pepto .

[carrigansghost]

Great work in tracking these cards. I cannot thank the board members like yourself that are trying to make this a hobby again enough.

Rawn

[Zach Wheat]

Wow, very enlightening. Great Job Dan.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

please rich get real....what happened to the Brady Rookie threads...the card that went from 8.5 to 9.5 by getting shorter? wont mention names here but most know who im talking about......

beckett killed their board on purpose cause they saw more and more of those...

The Beckett message boards still exists; however; many of the old threads disappeared when the "new" website was created. This included good and bad threads. Since the ownership that created the whole problem with the BMB are no longer running the company -- I don't want to speak ill of those no longer there. But note a couple of things

1) I said almost no thread was ever taken off. Sean C used to be a moderator (he still may be for all I know) and can talk about his hands-off policy (or his hands-on if there was one)

2) Like I said the BMB went through some changes last year when the new web site came up; I like much of the new web site; but frankly, I'm in the minority there and many of the posters have disappeared.

3) I usually did not read the football message board; so I can not specifically talk about the Brady card and what happenend. However; I do remember that the seller of that card (I think was Kevin Burge) has been the subject of many threads on BMB and almost none of them were eliminated

4) I stand by what I said

Regards
Rich

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Stone - First off, thanks for coming over.

Regarding those two white specs you are concerned about, I can assure you those are extraneous to the card itself. I've just re-scanned that card and those are just loose specs of lint.

[Sean_C]

To respond to Rich's post:

I was and still am a moderator over on the Beckett boards. We do have a much more aggressive policing policy that Leon has here, but far less restrictive than the ones over on the CU boards (the post over there referencing this thread has been poofed already). We would not delete the threads about questionable BGS cards (those in the hobby that know me know that I've been complaining about altered cards in all TPG holders, and specifically BGS grading sheet-cut cards for years), and in fact, I posted multiple times when the thread about the altered Brady card was first posted.

I can't and won't post our guidelines for deleting threads or suspending users, other than to say that reposts of deleted threads would obviously be deleted, and ones that contained personal / private information and conversations) would be edited or removed if editing would destroy the point of the thread (similar to what Dan did removing some of the contact details in his posting of his communication with Scott, although we would have probably removed all of the back and forth communications with Scott as well and left the rest of the post). There may have been very specific reasons why a thread would be deleted, and if it were done by the actual staff of Beckett and not the moderators, it was likely due to a complaint by one of the people mentioned in the thread (IE: Scott contacting Leon or Dan and making threats because of the content of this thread).

Posting a well documented, thoroughly explained example of an altered card like the Brady would not get the post deleted on it's own. Someone coming along and making accusations as to how/why the card was graded ("person on the inside", payoffs, collusion, etc.) that were not not substantiated by demonstrated facts would probably get the individual post deleted, the poster banned and possibly cause the thread to get locked if it got out of hand.

Beckett certainly didn't kill "their board on purpose cause they saw more and more of those..." . No business ever intends to drive away customers (well, except maybe eBay... ). The changes to the board and site were intended to attract more posters / customers, not drive them away. Sometimes things work, sometimes they don't. What I can say though is that I do see a lot more direct interaction now between Beckett staff members, writers, etc. and the posters on the board now than we had in old days; not from any type of moderating / supervisory type role, but in generally just talking about the hobby and interacting with collectors, which I see as a positive.

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

The Beckett message boards still exists; however; many of the old threads disappeared when the "new" website was created. This included good and bad threads. Since the ownership that created the whole problem with the BMB are no longer running the company -- I don't want to speak ill of those no longer there. But note a couple of things

1) I said almost no thread was ever taken off. Sean C used to be a moderator (he still may be for all I know) and can talk about his hands-off policy (or his hands-on if there was one)

2) Like I said the BMB went through some changes last year when the new web site came up; I like much of the new web site; but frankly, I'm in the minority there and many of the posters have disappeared.

3) I usually did not read the football message board; so I can not specifically talk about the Brady card and what happenend. However; I do remember that the seller of that card (I think was Kevin Burge) has been the subject of many threads on BMB and almost none of them were eliminated

4) I stand by what I said

Regards
Rich

[Exhibitman]

So who are the guilty parties? An expose only works if the crooks are exposed. As Louis Brandeis said: "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants"

[Peter_Spaeth]

I see this less as an expose of specific parties than an expose of flaws in the system of which this sampling is just a microcosm.

[stone193]

If one thinks of the volume of graded cards that pass thru their doors every year, it's not in their interest to let anyone have a 'deal' since we know it's gonna eventually leak out and affect the reputation of the entire company.

If they are giving "deals?"

Then they're bigger idiots than I could ever fathom.

As is goes for freedom to express ideas? It's not in their interest to let this go nuts for an entire weekend - tho it would be entertaining.

And, as it goes for freedom here? Start badmouthing some of the banners that are on the top of my screen and we'll see?

Finally - with respect to PSA or any grading company - with the volume they do - mistakes are gonna be made - to make it foolproof would just plain cost too much per submission.

I don't think the sky's falling.

This is gonna happen with all the companies: just take a look at these two Beckett graded cards - same individually numbered card - better grade but definitely "enhanced" - just look at the 'shoe' on the left side - ya see just little bit less of it on the better graded example:

[J.McMurry]

"It has always concerned me that so many high grade slabbed cards appear slightly short in the holder, as do the ones in Dan's post. For years I have listened to BS from dealers about cutting variances, natural shorts, etc. I increasingly believe that if a card has that telltale short look in a holder, that's because it probably has been microtrimmed. "

That statement, along with the fact that the examples shown were commons of a post war set, sickens me.

Tell me guys, if a card does not fit the holder,is that absolute proof that the card has been altered? because I have several cards in BOTH companys' holders that are smaller than the holder area.

I can say that I have never purchased from a Scott Sucksor or whatever.

[Leon]

"And, as it goes for freedom here? Start badmouthing some of the banners that are on the top of my screen and we'll see?"

Yes, you will see that nothing happens. Trust me. Maybe you haven't been around here long enough. I have. best regards

[Peter_Spaeth]

J.M. I don't think it's absolute proof, no. But the typical card was to my knowledge cut to size, especially when they became standard, and so one would expect the percentage of natural shorts to be relatively low. For high grade cards, in my experience it is relatively high.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Thanks everyone for the interest. Good work Greg (BOTN) in figuring out who the main culprit is: eBay Power Seller "scottsusor". This party bought all of those raw cards on eBay and later re-sold them in graded holders on eBay.

CLARIFICATION NOTE: The rationale for not initially disclosing whose card doctoring was displayed on the first part of this thread was to make the reader first determine that those cards were altered before finding out who the culprit was. The reason for this approach is due to the slobbering love affair many PSA collectors have for this seller. All attempts to warn these folks of this kind of nonsense in the past, even with scans, were for the most part futile.

There have been some very interesting and hysterically funny developments over the past 24 hours. As of 5:00 pm today, I'm quite certain eBay buyer/seller "scottsusor" has no idea that he has been the main focus of a large scale investigation for 3 years and doesn't know we have mounds of visual evidence against this party nor has he seen this thread. He was given negative feedback on the '61 Topps Cheney by me at noon today and in return filed a complaint through eBay for a revision of the feedback with claims of being libeled by me. Can we all yawn together at the count of three for him challenging me in a lawsuit? Anyway the feedback stated:

Sells altered PSA graded cards without disclosure. STAY AWAY! AVOID!

After receiving this frivolous threat through eBay requesting to resolve the feedback, I came up with this idea to propose to him: I'll remove the negative if he signs a sworn affidavit stating he doesn't alter cards, etc. I haven't heard back. If he does sign it, he should get an easy perjury charge with the local courts instead of dealing with the Feds who are backlogged on other fraud cases. If he refuses, it makes him that much more guilty.

UPDATE NOTE: Over 60 hours have passed with no reply to my request for him to sign a sworn statement guaranteeing that he hasn't altered cards and then re-sold them. I think it's safe to say at this point he knows he's been exposed.


See our e-mail exchanges below. This speaks volumes regarding the credibility of this seller. (Bold text added for emphasis. E-mail, phone and mailing addresses deleted).



Hello Scott,

You know, I do realize now that I might have been somewhat
hasty in giving you that negative since it is possible
that those two cards were altered before you received
them.

Here's what I'm willing to do. If you sign a sworn affidavit
that is legally binding in a court of law and give me a legally
binding copy of that affidavit stating to the effect that
any of the raw cards you've received as a buyer the past 5 years
either through the mail or at shows are always in your possession
until they are sent to a grading company. Furthermore you will
swear that while these raw cards are in your possession you or
anyone else has not altered the paper stock of the cards before you've
submitted them to PSA.

If you are willing to do this, you have my word of honor that I
will change the negative feedback to a positive. This has to be
done by the August 31st of course and I'm sure you'd like to do
this sooner than that. If cost is an issue, I will be willing to help out.

I have to agree on the way the document is worded before you
sign off on it. No weasel language.

Let me know.

Dan



From: Scott & Doreen Susor
To: Dan Markel
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:31:02 PM
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member Regarding Item #310156210162

Hello Dan,

While highly doubtful due to PSA's rigorous grading
process, it certainly is possible that the cards in question
are trimmed. As PSA people always say, humans grade
the cards and humans make mistakes. It is also possible
that they were cut shorter than standard at the Topps factory,
but not short enough for PSA to reject due to not meeting
the minimum size requirement.

All I can do is what I've done, to offer you a full refund on
the card/cards that you are unhappy with.

Also, if those cards are indeed trimmed, you may have
concerns that I trimmed those cards before sending them
to PSA. I can assure you that I did not. I would never
send in a card that I knew for sure to be altered. That
said, I have sent many cards in to PSA over the years
that PSA rejected due to evidence of trimming. I did not
trim any of them. I have gotten better over the years in
knowing what to look for, and there is much more to look
for than just the card being undersized, but I have to admit
that I'm still not perfect as I still get one rejected as
trimmed here and there.

The worst purchase of cards I ever made was a bunch
of 1957, 1958 and 1959 Topps cards several years ago.
This was before I knew what to look for as far as trimmed
cards goes. I sent them all in along with a few others of
the same years and something like 70% got rejected
with evidence of trimming! I was stunned, dismayed and
embarrassed. I contacted Joe Orlando at PSA and he
explained in detail what the problem with those cards
was and helped me to understand what PSA looks for,
and what I should look for in pre-grading, for evidence of
trimming.

Some cards are just done so well that I can't even tell
with close eyeball inspection plus magnification that the
card has been altered, and I guess that would also be
true for PSA graders. But I can tell you that a lot of
trimming is going on out there in the raw card world by
a lot of different people. I buy quite a few cards on eBay
myself, from various sellers. In my pre-grading process,
I end up discarding about 1 out of every 7 or 8 cards I buy
as not being trimmed or at least looking like it even if it
hasn't been. I don't think its necessarily the people selling
the cards that did the alteration but somebody did it before
it got to them, probably as part of a complete set that the
seller bought to break and sell.

Again, if you want to return the cards you are unhappy
with for a full refund, please do, and I will send your refund
either via PayPal or by mail if you prefer.

Scott Susor
P.O. Box
Houston, TX 77255

If you'd like to discuss this further on the phone, please
feel free to call me at

Regards,
Scott





----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Markel
To: Scott & Doreen Susor
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member Regarding Item #310156210162

The reason is that a local long time dealer/collector named Dan Markel wanted to see this '61 Cheney PSA 8 very badly and upon inspecting it declared without question it is trimmed and same with the '64 Osteen PSA 8 that was recently purchased from you.

From: Scott & Doreen Susor
To: mondo.cards@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:47:39 PM
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member Regarding Item #310156210162

Not to my knowledge. PSA is very good at detecting
altered cards. Why do you ask?

----- Original Message -----
From: eBay Member: mondo.card.company
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:17 PM
Subject: Message from eBay Member Regarding Item #310156210162

eBay eBay sent this message to Scott Susor (scottsusor).
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more.
This member has a question for you.

Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn More.
Dear scottsusor,

This card you sold me wouldn't happened to be trimmed would it?

- mondo.card.company

Answer the question

1961 TOPPS #494 TOM CHENEY Pirates PSA 8 NM-MT
1961 TOPPS #494 TOM CHENEY Pirates PSA 8 NM-MT
Item Id: 310156210162
End time: Jul-25-09 19:50:00 PDT
Buyer:

mondo.card.company (1014)
100.0% Positive Feedback
Member since Jan-11-99 in United States
Location: TX, United States
Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was closed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan, where did the "before" scans come from?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Peter,

The two Jim Kings were sold around Jan. and Feb. 2007 by eBay seller "excuzme". I saved the scans directly to my hard drive, and also had them backed up on several networks managed by an IT group who could prove they pre-existed before the graded cards showed up on eBay.

The '61 Cheney and the '67 Ellis were originally mine. I made high resolution scans of those cards (about 6 megabytes each) - front and back and asked an attorney in Dallas to list them on eBay along with about 70 other cards between Oct. 2007 to early this year. Susor bought about 30 of them and typically sits on them for 12 to 18 months. We have since then bought back 5 and all appear to be altered to various degrees. The '61 Cheney are the '67 Ellis are the best examples. I have a '64 Osteen that was micro-trimmed. I'll show scans later.

The other 40 were also tracked and several were bought back from "good collectors" with no signs of alteration. Frank Bakka was one of them.