Card Improvment: Ethical? Yes or NO?

[Reginald Marsh]

Bretta i agree that you should have the right to bring up controversial subjects but if you are please bring up something new. Cards have been restored for the past 30 years and also note there is a huge difference in removing something from a card and adding something.

When a piece of artwork has dirt removed it is entirely different than when someone repairs the canvas or touches up paint loss.

I was only kidding when saying goofball but i forgot the sensitive level is ultra high here on this board. The only point i was trying to make is let's talk about something new instead of the same blah.....blah....blah....

Everyday it is either Mastro,legendary,Doug Forman.......and then Mastro,Legendary,card restoring......Doug forman.....and then....so you get my point.

[Cat]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Doug Forman

Gave me a chuckle.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Bretta i agree that you should have the right to bring up controversial subjects but if you are please bring up something new. Cards have been restored for the past 30 years and also note there is a huge difference in removing something from a card and adding something.

When a piece of artwork has dirt removed it is entirely different than when someone repairs the canvas or touches up paint loss.

I was only kidding when saying goofball but i forgot the sensitive level is ultra high here on this board. The only point i was trying to make is let's talk about something new instead of the same blah.....blah....blah....

Everyday it is either Mastro,legendary,Doug Forman.......and then Mastro,Legendary,card restoring......Doug forman.....and then....so you get my point.

The only reason I brought it up today was that I hadn't realized that a card doctor was posting to the board rather regularly....almost solely for the purpose of advertising his service. Others may not have been aware of what Mr Towle does. Also Barry made an interesting point in the other thread...if you can't tell, does it matter?

This board reflects what is going on in the hobby...there really is no bigger news than what is happening with Mastro/Legendary/Doug Foreman and you're going to see a lot of posts on those subjects. If you don't like it you are free to start another thread.

[Reginald Marsh]

Ummmm Doug Forman or Bill Meistro is old news. I'm trying to find the common sense when a company is being investigated by the feds as to why people bid or consign with that auction house.

Can you imagine if Madoff just changed his company name and folks still relied on his firm to manage their life savings?

Maybe it is just me but i do not feel sorry for any consignors or bidders in regards to Legendary because everyone should have known better once the news broke about the investigation some time ago.

Beating a dead horse gets old and the truth of all of this is simple- Once a card is in a holder it is the end of the line. All the drama around the Honus Wagner and the fact it is not legit is hilarious. If the feds were getting anywhere with their findings then they should have the card cracked out and viewed by two different experts and then whoooaaaaa the game would get real interesting. People with high end cards could care less about message boards or altering just like coins when the coin goes in a PCGS MS-66 holder then the fun starts.

[E93]

...it will affect the Minty-mint collectors that are really concerned about population reports, but if that's not what you collect then it really shouldn't matter.

I disagree. I think there are just as many cards that have gone from vg to ex as there are cards that have gone from ex/mt to nm/mt. It just comes down to if it is worth the time for the $$$. If a doctor could change a $2000 vg Cobb into a $6000 ex or ex/mt Cobb, they will do it. It is not the specific condition label. It is the cash value of the change.
JimB
P.S. Without rebuilding corners, etc., which would be a much more involved and detectable change in general, it is not easy to find vintage cards that are even in shooting range of becoming nm/mt. It is much easier to rub out a wrinkle or minor crease and make a card ex.

[barrysloate]

Jim B- good point. It's really about how much money can be made, period. I agree.

But if the grading companies can't really assure collectors that cards haven't been tampered with, and if yesterday's VG card is today's EX-MT card, and nobody cares, then I have a question: why do we need the grading companies at all?

Let's go back to storing cards in screwdown lucite holders and forget about submitting them at all. Why bother? According to many who have posted here, we can never be sure of the grade, or the authenticity, anyhow. So why should I care what the label reads?

[T206Collector]

I should've said EX to Minty. Either way, I think the stress level of people who care about these things is higher the higher the grade you collect.

[Bamacollection]

Barry,
The only 2 reasons we need to be concerned with regarding slabs is the premium we will charged for a card and the value it will retain if we wish to sell the card down the line. Let's say you are looking at a T206 in a PSA 6 holder, how many dealers would accept you looking at a card, spot an error, wrinkle, crease, etc... and agree the slab was wrong and take less for the card? Maybe you can talk them down a couple of dollars, but probably not a couple of grades. Grades on a slab are no more than a price tag and a guarantee of future value. I wish I had been involved in the hobby when slabs didn't exist.

[barrysloate]

Lance- in your example, if the public loses confidence in what a PSA 6 really is, the card is going to take a big hit anyway.

Collectors pay enormous premiums for high grade cards and they want to get what they pay for. Sure, some cards in 7 holders may really only be 6's or 6.5's, but the market can tolerate that. All collectors know there is some subjectivity to grading.

But if you were led to believe that the 7 you just purchased was originally in a 3 holder, that just wouldn't cut it. The market won't tolerate that. Nobody will pay $500 for what was previously a $35 card.