Removing ink from baseballs

[drc]

I'm not offering judgment, but believe what Dick says about autograph grading is accurate. I believe PSA/DNA's grade for an autograph is for the autograph itself and not the overall item. If you send in a Sandy Koufax single signed baseball or scrap of paper, the grade is for the signature not the ball or scrap of paper.

[barrysloate]

But the most valuable form of a signature is a single signed ball. So now you will have people looking for mixed signature balls that they can buy reasonably, and then use this product to remove all the signatures except the valuable one. It will create a cottage industry of people buying balls only with the intent of changing their appearance. And that will be the sole use of the product, to make that change.

That's not a good thing.

[Al C.risafulli]

So now you will have people looking for mixed signed balls that they can be buy reasonably,

"now" is probably not the best word to use here, as it implies that this isn't happening already. As I understand it, it is.

I like team-signed baseballs, BTW, and have a number of them. I'd be horrified if someone took the sigs off my '48 Yankees ball and kept the DiMaggio. It's the Charlie Keller and the Tommy Henrich along with the DiMag that make it such a cool item, IMO.

-Al

[tkd7]

What if its a personalization that's removed? Most collectors prefer baseballs without personalization.

Anyway, seems like team balls would be tough with the overlap in signatures.

[Reginald Marsh]

J Birkholm "Quote"-Just to clarify, Dick--will you only be removing fraudulent signatures from baseballs, or will you remove anything the customer requests (such as removing a Milt Pappas signature off the side panel of a ball that also has a blazing Nellie Fox autograph)?

I almost fell off my chair laughing, since when has Nellie Fox's auto become blazing.

There really is nothing wrong with removing autographs from a ball if a person does want them there. If someone has a problem that the auto's were removed then do not buy or bid on the ball.

If someone went up and signed their name on the "Mona Lisa" ahhhhhhhh.....i think it would be removed and no one would say oh welll it is devalued now because the signature was removed.

I say great work Dick and forge on, just put on your hip boots to wade through the sappy spew from these guys.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

There really is nothing wrong with removing autographs from a ball if a person does want them there. If someone has a problem that the auto's were removed then do not buy or bid on the ball.

The problem Reginald is that single signed balls of certain players are always going to sell for more money than multi-signed balls....and not all sellers are going to disclose removal of signatures. All this service will do is further muddy the already murky waters.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

just put on your hip boots to wade through the sappy spew from these guys.

And what sort of equipment do you suggest one should wear in order to effectively traverse through a sea of ignorance?

[barrysloate]

This thread has established that there are some good uses for Dick's product, but also many bad ones that unscrupulous sellers will take advantage of. Why are some of the posters here only seeing what they want to see, and not looking at the whole picture?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Barry,

I am consdiering this topic from a panoramic perspective and hope that this is understood. The problem is that the current good (I use that word loosely) is far outweiged by the future bad. I've been as clear as possible in my opinions and can't think of anything more that can be added at this time.

For anyone who doesn't realize it, my viewpoints are not to be misconstrued as a personal attack on Dick, who I do not know personally. I just do not encourage such processes.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Signature removal has already been a problem for years. There is a fellow out on the west coast whose artistically-gifted daughter actually paints over unwanted signatures. She is able to match the exact hues (including various toning/staining issues which are unique to each ball). A regular Sherwin-Williams. Pretty incredible, and very scary. This man offers complete disclosure with his service, but it's up to the customer as to what he wants to do next. The authentication staff at PSA and JSA (at least when I worked there) could spot the majority of these "white washes" with the naked eye, and VSC examination never failed to actualy display the signatures that were painted over.

Self-education is the key here. If you are interested in buying, say, a Mel Ott single-signed ball, there are all of these things to consider:

-Familiarize yourself with Ott's signature using verifiable exemplars

-Study every Ott-signed ball you can find, to include single-signed, multi-signed and team-signed variations (watch out for the rubber stamp he sometimes used as Giants manager!)

-Notice where Ott most often chose to sign a ball. It's not on the sweet spot, but rather the side panel which he favored.

-Familiarize yourself with how to date official baseballs. I believe articles have been written about this.

-Early on in Ott's career, he was apt to sign horizontally on a side panel. Later on (circa mid-1930's-onward), it was more common to see Ott sign vertically on the side panel (usually towards the top stitching).

-If the Ott signature is in a very odd place for a single-signed ball, be very careful. For instance, if Ott is at the extreme top or bottom of a horizontally-signed side panel, that is a great cause for concern. It seems as though Ott favored the middle of a blank side panel if he was signing on the horizontal. It was only if the panel had been signed by others that he would squeeze his signature in at the top or bottom. The same rule applies if you see Ott's sig signed at the bottom of a vertical side panel. And, actually, many clubhouse versions of Ott's signature could be found at this location. Thankfully, nobody in the Giants organization could effectively mirror Mel's six-letter stroke.

-Ott was NOT a fan of signing on the sweet spot. He did hit the sweet spot periodiacally as Giants manager, but note that this was also the area where the rubber-stamped version would be placed. Unlike other Giants managers, Ott was not particularly fond of employing the rubber stamp on a regular basis.

I suppose the most important hint to be offered is simple: If a signature found on a single-signed baseball is situated in an area and fashion that doesn't sit right with you, hold back on purchasing it until more research can be done. Unless you know some eccentiricity to be a consistent baseball-signing habit of the player in question, it's best to hold off.

[barrysloate]

Is there any single area of the baseball card and memorabilia hobby where nobody is doing anything illicit for the sole purpose of a fat profit? Is there anything left?

[keithsky]

Your right Jodi about Mel Ott not signing the sweet spot or at least not a fan of it. Just my opinion but wonder why Stat Authentic and Chris Morales don't know that, cause every Ott ball I've seen over at the auction company they work for always has an Ott autograph right on the sweet spot and on a nice white ball.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Is there any single area of the baseball card and memorabilia hobby where nobody is doing anything illicit for the sole purpose of a fat profit? Is there anything left?

Exactly Barry. It is a scary time to be a collector.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Is there any single area of the baseball card and memorabilia hobby where nobody is doing anything illicit for the sole purpose of a fat profit? Is there anything left?

My guess is people are not cleaning up Salada Coins?

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My guess is people are not cleaning up Salada Coins?

Peter you would be wrong. I was an avid Salada collector in the day and still have a bunch.
In the days when I was buying them to complete my set, a fellow told me that
the 1962's w/ the paper insert can be lifted out and put on a cleaner coin disc. May not be a big deal on a Ruben Amaro, but it would be on a Mantle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Peter you would be wrong. I was an avid Salada collector in the day and still have a bunch.
In the days when I was buying them to complete my set, a fellow told me that
the 1962's w/ the paper insert can be lifted out and put on a cleaner coin disc. May not be a big deal on a Ruben Amaro, but it would be on a Mantle.

I stand corrected. There is no refuge from the great guys.

[Oldtix]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My guess is people are not cleaning up Salada Coins?

Barry, I'm going on the record to say that I will NOT have any restoration work done on my "Henry The Home Run Chicken" card.

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But the most valuable form of a signature is a single signed ball. So now you will have people looking for mixed signature balls that they can buy reasonably, and then use this product to remove all the signatures except the valuable one. It will create a cottage industry of people buying balls only with the intent of changing their appearance. And that will be the sole use of the product, to make that change.

That's not a good thing.

bARRY, YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT, IF SOME ONE SAYS TO ME THE AUTOGRAPH IS BAD, PLEASE REMOVE- THAT IS THE VERY PLAN SIR

[Al C.risafulli]

Barry, I don't think there's any part of LIFE where people aren't doing illicit things for profit.

But I think there are tons of places in this hobby where you can have an enjoyable experience.

A year or so ago I picked up a vintage glove from the 1930s. Vintage gloves close every single night on eBay, for very reasonable prices. This particular glove cost me something like $10.

I won the glove and then I consulted some of the glove collector forums to find the best way to clean up the glove and recondition the leather. I then took a Saturday afternoon and cleaned the glove, got it looking fantastic.

Then I brought the glove to the baseball practice of the team I coach - 9 year olds, mostly - and let them each have a turn trying to catch a baseball with a vintage glove. They were fascinated, and the few that actually managed to catch one got a round of applause from their teammates.

Finally, I boxed up the glove and shipped it to another collector friend of mine, hoping to turn him on to collecting gloves. He received the package and fell in love with it.

Best ten bucks I've spent in this hobby in years.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Dick, I just wanted to inject a little positivity into the discussion.

-Al

I have spoke with Dick on several ocassions about purchasing some of his collection. It seems he is a very honest and open person and cares about the hobby as much as most of us do.

It does not draw much concern to me that he as well as others are removing the graffiti from balls and restoring the values back. I think the grading companies should make a comment though about this. Such as where the sig was removed from, who it was, why it was removed, and any other info that pertains to the ball and signatures on it.

I do believe that I have read here on several occasions though that there are some people offering to remove ink (no names they know who they are), marks, paint, ect.. from cards which draws GREAT CONCERN to me. If the card was written or altered 60 yrs ago or 1 day ago it is part of the card. If ink was added to recolor so be it. When you start removing stuff like this from cards it only a matter of time before you get an "Old Mill Black Bar Overprint card". It makes me very wary about buying from people like this also. The cards were altered and then realtered. So what am I getting then??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dick, you are on a roll, may we also hear your justification for removing creases?

[Reginald Marsh]

Uummmmmm....Peter here is my question to you. Who the F&^ck are you? What gives you and Sloate and a few others the right to make anyone explain themselves or prove anything to you as if you are like the hobby police or something. If you do not like auto's being removed from balls then stop buying balls. If you are not smart enought to play in the high end graded card game then get out. What business is it of yours if a man calls Dick and wants a fake Maris auto removed?

Gasp---be careful of buying that card it may have been trimmed or a crease was removed. All this negative propaganda is only making folks uneasy about buying cards that are in high grade.

Really enough is enough and how about posting something positive for a change.

[khkco4bls]

wow, as rodney king once said, can't we all just get along. auto guys are out of control.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Uummmmmm....Peter here is my question to you. Who the F&^ck are you? What gives you and Sloate and a few others the right to make anyone explain themselves or prove anything to you as if you are like the hobby police or something. If you do not like auto's being removed from balls then stop buying balls. If you are not smart enought to play in the high end graded card game then get out. What business is it of yours if a man calls Dick and wants a fake Maris auto removed?

Gasp---be careful of buying that card it may have been trimmed or a crease was removed. All this negative propaganda is only making folks uneasy about buying cards that are in high grade.

Really enough is enough and how about posting something positive for a change.

LOL at least I use my real name. The better question, perhaps, is who are YOU?? And folks should be careful about buying high grade cards, in my opinion.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

[QUOTE=Reginald Marsh;744342]Uummmmmm....Peter here is my question to you. Who the F&^ck are you? QUOTE]

It's posts like these that make me scratch my head and wonder why I bother reading the posts on this message board. Some people have no tact.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But the most valuable form of a signature is a single signed ball. So now you will have people looking for mixed signature balls that they can buy reasonably, and then use this product to remove all the signatures except the valuable one. It will create a cottage industry of people buying balls only with the intent of changing their appearance. And that will be the sole use of the product, to make that change.

That's not a good thing.

Exactly. Even if Dick's intentions are good, he must know his services will be used by people to perpetrate deception, just as "Daniel Paul" (not his real last name) surely knew that when he discussed his card restoration talents in the VBCC 7 issue.