Which alleged practice concerns you the most?

[oldjudge]

1. I can spot doctored cards in the areas I collect so this is not a major issue for me.

2. In my opinion, on vintage cards SGC is very good and PSA is not. I just take that as a given.

3. I never bid more than I am happy to pay for a lot so this does not annoy me much.

4. Although I have been stung by fake memorabilia in the past (thanks Len) I think that if you cannot pick out fakes you only have yourself to blame.

5. This bothers me a lot. While collectors buy, and it is their responsibility to know what they are buying, non-collectors often sell. An example is the widow mentioned in a previous post. There is no, no excuse for ripping off these people. To me this is by far the worst offense.

[Wite3]

Easy...
1 through 5.

Joshua

[Mark]

1, 3, 4, and 5 are all forms of theft. Depending on the magnitude of the theft, anyone of them could be a major crime. I suppose that 4 and 5 are the ones that are hardest for the average collector to protect against and avoid.

[Jim VB]

Ranked in order from worst to least bad, with reasons


3. Shill bidding and related practices (e.g. reporting cards as sold that didn't sell). (As Marshall said, hard to prove, but if you can prove, a sign of complete lack of integrity.)

5. Failure to pay consignors. (A death sentence for an auction house, but could, possibly, be caused by factors harder to control by the auction house.)

4. Fake or misrepresented autographs and memorabilia. (I have never trusted any autographs, so for me, easy to avoid.)

1. Card alteration. (Sometimes hard to define. Impossible to accept once you do. Easier to spot, especially if the grading companies are doing their jobs well.)

2. Grading company incompetence. (Eventually, market forces will weed out the bad ones.)

6. It's a sunny day, at least here in the East, and everything is great. (I live in Texas. Every day is sunny, and unfortunately, 98 degrees.)

[Rob D.]

3. Shill bidding and related practices (e.g. reporting cards as sold that didn't sell).

Originally Posted by oldjudge

3. I never bid more than I am happy to pay for a lot so this does not annoy me much.

I've read this line of reasoning many times, and I can only imagine the chuckles it prompts from unscrupulous auctioneers who view this board.

If I'm willing (heck, even happy) to pay $1,000 for a card and I enter that amount as a ceiling or maximum bid, that doesn't give the auctioneer the right to shill the item to that amount. If the next-highest bid is $500, then I should pay the lowest amount that tops that bid as per the auction rules.

It's no wonder so many auctions are crooked; we collectors seem to invite getting ripped off.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

4. Although I have been stung by fake memorabilia in the past (thanks Len) I think that if you cannot pick out fakes you only have yourself to blame.

To follow up with what Rob just wrote, this line also is particularly ridiculous (and legally incorrect). So if a fraudster tries to sell you, let's say, a fake Mickey Cochrane game worn jersey, and if you can't discern that it's a fake, only you are at fault? You can't blame the criminal who just tried to steal your money? No wonder our hobby is rife with criminals -- the victims refuse to blame the very people who are defrauding them!

[rdixon1208]

Failure to pay consignors

[Reginald Marsh]

The reason failure to pay consignors stands out to me is very simple. No matter the subject matter whether it be cards,antiques,paintings and so forth if consignors do not get paid then there is simply no great stuff to bid on.

For example.....if a guy consigns a 50,000 card and does not get paid then he will generally file a lawsuit and then says to himself well F&^K this and never for any reason consign a high dollar card hence the only way to get great cards is through estates and that is tough. Trust me we all know who hustles in the game and provides great things to bid on for the high end collectors, burn them a few times and cards get locked up and sold privately.

Schill bidding is so hard to prove.......hmmmmm........look how long the feds have been looking at Mastro and tah-dah nothing but drama and nobody is locked up or sentenced. The feds will never prove it and it just leaves a negative cloud over the hobby.

[barrysloate]

1-4 has been going on for so long you kind of expect it. It's lost its ability to shock or surprise.

But #5, failure to pay consignors, is completely off the charts. So that one gets my vote.

[ibuysportsephemera]

The first 3 relate to decisions we can make as collectors and the outcome is somewhat within your control. Not paying a consignor is a totally different concept. I guess shill bidding also fits into a category of situations that are not within your control as well. So my vote goes to 3 & 5.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

1-4 has been going on for so long you kind of expect it. It's lost its ability to shock or surprise.

But #5, failure to pay consignors, is completely off the charts. So that one gets my vote.

ditto

[Al C.risafulli]

In my case it would be shill bidding and related practices. I think shill bidding has the biggest negative impact on the hobby since it artificially inflates values, and hurts both buyers and sellers.

Each of the other things are, in my opinion, bad. However, each is also somewhat mitigated by knowledge. The more I know about a given issue, or about the hobby in general, the less likely I am to be victimized by any of those things. And while I've certainly encountered each of them (except #5), I think it's #3 that I can protect myself against the LEAST.

-Al

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

It's no wonder so many auctions are crooked; we collectors seem to invite getting ripped off.

Originally Posted by calvindog

No wonder our hobby is rife with criminals -- the victims refuse to blame the very people who are defrauding them!

Is it me or are there more and more threads where people just want to vent, as I am now doing? Seems some threads could be and should be handled privately. Reflects poorly on the board as a whole but I sense most don't recognize that.

Com'on guys - handle these issues privately.

In case it wasn't clear - I think all this stuff should be publicly discussed and exposed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To answer my own question, in order worst to least concerning.
1. Card alteration.
2. Grading company incompetence. To me this is bound up with card alteration -- I believe a staggeringly high number of altered cards (by most people's definition) have made their way into holders with number grades.
3. Failure to pay.
4. Shill bidding.
5. Fake memorabilia, only b/c I don't collect, if I did would be right up there with card alteration.

EDIT TO ADD Of course these categories are not mutually exclusive. I imagine there have been many occasions when someone was shill bid on an altered card that a grading company incompetently slabbed.