1921 Shotwell Babe Ruth Discovered

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bob Lemke

Leon,unless someone has found a "new" W575-1 Ruth, the Shotwell doesn't conform to any of the three listed in that checklist.

The Shotwell has his position listed as R.F., with no quotes around BABE.

The three W575-1 are:

R.F. "Babe"
L.F. BABE
w/man and bird "BABE"

As I've looked into these issues more and more, along with the M101-4 and M101-5 and their derivatives, I think there's still a lot we don't know about actual checklists, midstream changes in set composition, etc.

Hi Bob ..
I am one of the folks who doesn't believe in changing the ACC. Unless this was put out by American Caramel Co., and distributed by a competitor, then it's still not an E121. I could go with E121-Unc, I guess .

[rhettyeakley]

It seems like 1921 E-UNC Shotwell Manufacturing should be sufficient. I affectionately call all the cards in these sets "E121-like" cards only because it makes it easier to group them all together, just like we usually refer to "M101-4/5" cards by that name even though there are tons of different ACC designations involved.

Bob, I love the SCD book for many issues, but one of the issues whose checklist is vitually meaningless at this point is the W575-1 list. I have covered it several times on the forum (I can find a link for you later), but what people call "W575-1" are actually from TWO completely different sets. One is a high quality photos & paper (some call it E121 blank backs), the other being on crappy paper and really grainy photos. I began calling them W575-1A for the ood quality ones and W575-1B for the grainy ones, and I have seen those designations being used by others so it seems like they have sort of caught on.

What follows is complicated, and confusing, and I have only included the "Reader's Digest" version but here are the distinguishing characteristics of the two sets...

W575-1A - These were NOT hand cut, although some manufacturers who distributed them may have bought sheets and cut them themselves (they weren't "strip-cards" in their distribution. Included under this designation are the Henry Johnson and James Keating sets, as those cards are simply W575-1A's that that particular distributor decided to rubber-stamp on back. The Koester's Bread set would also be included under this umbrella because they have simple blank backs. Generally these are going to be from earlier in the "E121-like" print run, and infielders will USUALLY (not always) be designated as 2nd B., 1st B., etc. while outfielders are designated by their specific positions like R.F., L.F., C.F., and even Outf. on occason, far fewer are cards from this set that have the later (E121-120) designations of 2B, 1B., etc or simply O.F. for outfielders.

W575-1B - These are all hand cut on the top & bottom borders ONLY. These are from the very end of the "E121-like" card distibution period and from all the cards that I have documented (which is quite a few), this set shares a checklist with the W501 set. In fact I would go one step further and say that they are simply a reprint of the W501 just without the card # & "G-4-22" thing at top, the reason being that the photo quality (or lack thereof) is identical and the card stock is also identical between the W501's and W575-1B's. These will ALWAYS have the much more simple 1B., 2B., etc. and O.F. designations.

The problem with the W575-1 listing in the SCD book is that it has included the two distinct sets together for so long that it almost needs to be scrapped at this point to distinguish between the two.

This Holke photo shows the W575-1A ---- W501 ----- W575-1B (in that order)

[rhettyeakley]

I'll post the picture on it's own so you don't have to scroll r-l to read what I wrote...

[Al C.risafulli]

Rhett:

I've got a ton of respect for your knowledge of the W575-1 and E121 sets, and I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have a question for you.

The cards you classify as "W575-1A" - with respect to the checklists, is it your opinion that the checklist of those sets follows the checklist in the Standard Catalog for W575-1? I ask because my experience is that the checklist for the Henry Johnson cards does NOT follow the W575-1 checklist, and it's much more likely that it follows the checklist for the E121 Series of 80.

-Al

[rhettyeakley]

Al, without getting too far into it, you are basically correct that the W575-1A checklist will look very much like the E121 Series of 80 set.

It is a little more complex than that as in order to understand the checklists of the different sets, you have to know what the timeline of the "E121 like" card. The blank backed (W575-1A set was initially produced even before the E121 Series of 80, so there will be players in the W575-1A set that had been dropped by the time the E121 cards (80) were made (they were being made roughly the same time as the Holsum/Herpolsheimer cards) and the blank backs continued through the beginning of when the E121 Series of 120 were being produced. However, the W575-1B cards were all made at the end of when E121 Series of 120 was being produced.

-Rhett

[2dueces]

Bob, Not to de rail this thread, but on your blog you have a picture of College Football HOFer Albie Booth. It said that he played in the 1932 season. Here is a plate I have dated from 1932. Front row second from the right (first player) sure looks like Booth. Only problem I see is that he is holding a catchers mitt? Same face shape and same uniform. Is it Booth?

[Bob Lemke]

Sorry to report I don't know enough about Booth or Yale baseball to tell one way or another.

I wonder why some of the jerseys have a 1935 date on them? Booth was out of school several years by then.

[fkw]

Hi Bob, here is another back thats just as rare if not rarer than the E121 style Shotwell.

E135 style (1917) Merchants Bakery

[paul]

Rhett,

Do you think the Jesse Burkett card is specific to Koester Bread, or that it should be found in other W575-1A sets?

Paul