THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....

drc · #1 07-14-2009, 12:58 PM

Please note there is no such thing as innocent until proven guilty. The "presumed innocent until proven guilty" is for the purposes of the court of law. Of course someone could have committed an act, even if others can't prove it.

Secondly, note that in a court of law the judge or jury doesn't never says you're "innocent." If cleared of the charges, they find you "not guilty." The law is perfectly well aware the system can and does let free people who committed the crime.

Lastly, note that neither Adolf Hitler nor John Wilkes Booth were never found guilty in a court of law during their last times. Obviously we (or most) don't use this as proof that they were innocent of their alleged crimes. People have used information and facts and testimony beyond the walls of a courtroom to come to the learned judgments that they were guilty.

In short, as far as the truth goes, there is no such thing as 'innocent until proven guilty.' On ESPN and FoxSports chatboards, it's not only a lazy (but convenient) misquote of what they law says and means, but the phrase is nonsensical when read literally. Not only that, but 99.9 percent of people, including those ESPN chatboard posters defending Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds, disagree with the literal interpretation of that phrase. The literal reading is on the order of saying "A woman isn't pregnant until the moment the doctor tells her she is pregnant. Thus, a woman who never sees a doctor can never be pregnant."

mannybb24 · #2 07-14-2009, 02:11 PM

Pujols in college was stocky, almost fat, that is why he lasted till the 13th round. Scouts thought he had a bad body but knew he could hit.
All of a sudden, he shot through the Cardinals system in a year and then he's winning the ROY. Hmmmm.
I'm not saying he did or is doing stuff but when I saw him play in Appleton when he was in A ball with the Peoria Chiefs, just out of Community College and he was big and lean all of a sudden.

ScottFandango · #3 07-14-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Pujols in college was stocky, almost fat, that is why he lasted till the 13th round. Scouts thought he had a bad body but knew he could hit.
All of a sudden, he shot through the Cardinals system in a year and then he's winning the ROY. Hmmmm.
I'm not saying he did or is doing stuff but when I saw him play in Appleton when he was in A ball with the Peoria Chiefs, just out of Community College and he was big and lean all of a sudden.
He is also named in the Jason Grimsley case where Grimsley named Clemens, Pettite and a few others. Pujols' personal trainer and close friend was Grimsley's connection to roid's supposedly.

100% False....

i would edit that cause tha borders on slander........Grimsley's named trainer that was originally redacted was found out to be none other than Brian McNamee....

get your facts straight before you spout off lies on a public message board....

slidekellyslide · #4 07-14-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

[/b]

100% False....

i would edit that cause tha borders on slander........Grimsley's named trainer that was originally redacted was found out to be none other than Brian McNamee....

get your facts straight before you spout off lies on a public message board....

You can forgive him a little bit for that because it was all over the news and internet before the story was found to be false and as such still permeates the internet as most news organizations did very little to correct the mistake.

mannybb24 · #5 07-14-2009, 08:51 PM

My bad guys if I was wrong.
I heard it on the radio just 2 days ago on the Score in Chicago that Pujols name was for some reason black out in the Jason Grimsley case so that is why I made the comment. I never heard that this was not true.
I have deleted that part of my message reply.
Very sorry if I offended anyone. I usually do not post, I like to look from afar and that's what I will do from now on.

JK · #6 07-14-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Pujols in college was stocky, almost fat, that is why he lasted till the 13th round. Scouts thought he had a bad body but knew he could hit.
All of a sudden, he shot through the Cardinals system in a year and then he's winning the ROY. Hmmmm.
I'm not saying he did or is doing stuff but when I saw him play in Appleton when he was in A ball with the Peoria Chiefs, just out of Community College and he was big and lean all of a sudden.

This isnt entirely accurate either. Pujols was drafted late not only because he was stocky, but also because he was considered slow, there were questions regarding his true age and some questions regarding whether he could transition from aluminum to wood bats. One thing that has been constant all along, however, has been that he has hit with power. He was also a top 100 prospect out of high school. See the following links for more detail:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...rry&id=2894316

"But some scouts considered him too chunky and "heavy legged,'' and there were rumblings that he might be older than advertised. He played at Maple Woods Community College in Kansas City, and St. Louis scouting director John Mozeliak, at the urging of scouts Mike Roberts and Dave Karaff, saw him at a college tournament in Wichita and thought he was worth a shot. The Cards signed Pujols for a reported $60,000 and sent him to the instructional league in Jupiter, Fla. In his first at-bat, Pujols hit a ground ball up the middle. The next time up, he launched a shot off the roof of a building beyond the left field fence."

.......

and:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...that_got_away/

"``First of all," Jacobs said, ``his body wasn't great back then. Plus, people weren't sure how old the guy was. You assumed what he told you was true, but he wasn't a great body, and his swing was a little long.

``But he had big-time power, and you can't walk away from that kind of power. You do your homework, you study his aptitude, you figure you can fine-tune his swing and get his body better. His hands were very good for his size, and he had a good arm, playing shortstop.""

DeanH3 · #7 07-15-2009, 12:09 AM

I'm not saying I'm convinced Pujols is juicing. I really do hope he is clean. Pujols comes off as a humble guy that is respectful of the games past. I like him. But having said that I would not be the least bit surprised if he has. And that goes for everybody else that has played during this era not just Pujols. Unfortunately everybody that is successful will always be doubted to a certain degree. Yes I think that is unfair. But that is today's reality.

chaddurbin · #8 07-15-2009, 12:33 AM

a writer did name pujols in an interview i heard (along with others like randy johnson etc)...i didn't care enough to remember since i just assumed if you're playing in the late 90's and early 2000's and ur clean...that means you weren't trying.

...and ryan howard wishes he was half the hitter pujols is, pujols would legit hit 60hrs every year in philly....wake me up when howard can hit a slider from a loogy lefty.

ScottFandango · #9 07-15-2009, 07:18 AM

thanks for posting those...

mannybb24 · #10 07-15-2009, 01:10 PM

you're cool man

JK · #11 07-14-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drc

Lastly, note that neither Adolf Hitler nor John Wilkes Booth were never found guilty in a court of law during their last times. Obviously we (or most) don't use this as proof that they were innocent of their alleged crimes. People have used information and facts and testimony beyond the walls of a courtroom to come to the learned judgments that they were guilty.

Sort of a ridiculous assertion to support your argument considering neither individual was ever tried before a court of law don't you think? Perhaps OJ would be a better example. Regardless, I find it simply beyond comprehension how anyone can argue that a player cannot be great today without using PEDs and yet believe that players in the non-steriod era were capable of such greatness. Heck, I'd even be willing to bet there were players with muscular builds in the non-steriod era.

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