Question about T-213's

[canjond]

I have speculated before that Coupon's are often in worse condition than other cards due to their packaging. While most cards of the era were packaged in slide and shell cigarette packs (cardboard packs with an outer shell and inner slide), Coupon utilized a soft pack configuration. See my website below for an image of the pack:

http://www.baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Because the pack was not stiff, the card inside was not that well protected (or so I assume).

[caramelcard]

Interesting Jon. Thanks.

T213 type 1 are some of the thinnest tobacco cards ever made which would explain why they didn't stay in good shape for the last 100 years.

Rob

[canjond]

Rob - it's only a guess but seems logical to me. Part of the reason type 1s may have been thin is because a thicker cardboard may have ripped the cigarette wrapper. Again, just a guess.

[canjond]

I should add, I've spoken with a few cigarette collectors at length about Coupon packs and they have provided me with enough information to be fairly confident that Coupon cigarettes were not offered in a slide and shell configuration. Jim Shaw owns the Coupon cigarette pack pictured on my website (which is a softpack) and it does date to 1910. It is the only period Coupon pack I have ever come across (all others I have seen date to the 1920's through 1940's with many being in cellophane).

Interestingly, Coupon is not the only cigarette to package cards with softpacks in this time period. Pirate also packaged its cards in softpacks. Later on, however, possibly in the 1920s, Pirate switched to a slide and shell configuration.

[tbob]

Interestingly enough when I was lucky enough to be a part of the 4 person group that uncovered the "Southern Find" back in the mid 80's, there were no T213-1s, only 2s and 3s. The 2s were in mixed shape but a lot of them were in very nice shape. I ended up with about 200 2s and almost all the Hall of Famers but the 6 Cobbs I got were between VG and EXMT. There were 25 Cobbs total in the lot! The other 3 people in the group wanted 2s but I knew how rare the 3s were so I ended up with a near set of 3s, all in VG to EXMT. I lacked 2 cards of having the entire set and was able to find two T213-3s which were unknown at that time. Long gone now, sold them to Bill Mastro 20 years ago...

[slidekellyslide]

I just picked up my first T213-2 this week and it's in pretty good shape...it had to have been issued in 1916 or early 1917 though because Krause only played in Omaha in 1916. I guess with the lack of Coupon packs known though it's hard to say what kind of pack it came in.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by tbob

Interestingly enough when I was lucky enough to be a part of the 4 person group that uncovered the "Southern Find" back in the mid 80's, there were no T213-1s, only 2s and 3s. The 2s were in mixed shape but a lot of them were in very nice shape. I ended up with about 200 2s and almost all the Hall of Famers but the 6 Cobbs I got were between VG and EXMT. There were 25 Cobbs total in the lot! The other 3 people in the group wanted 2s but I knew how rare the 3s were so I ended up with a near set of 3s, all in VG to EXMT. I lacked 2 cards of having the entire set and was able to find two T213-3s which were unknown at that time. Long gone now, sold them to Bill Mastro 20 years ago...

I'm sure you've told the story before but what was the southern find?

[rman444]

Originally Posted by canjond

Interestingly, Coupon is not the only cigarette to package cards with softpacks in this time period. Pirate also packaged its cards in softpacks. Later on, however, possibly in the 1920s, Pirate switched to a slide and shell configuration.

Jon - interesting. I have never seen a Pirate soft pack, but many slide and shells. What leads you to believe that the Pirate backed cards were not issued in the slide and shells and these are not circa early 1910's? The number of Chinese beauties/warriors Pirate backed cards leads me to believe that they were issued in the slide and shells.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by rman444

Jon - interesting. I have never seen a Pirate soft pack, but many slide and shells. What leads you to believe that the Pirate backed cards were not issued in the slide and shells and these are not circa early 1910's? The number of Chinese beauties/warriors Pirate backed cards leads me to believe that they were issued in the slide and shells.

A few different reasons... When Hagar made a find of Pirates in the late 1990s (some may recall his auction of them in SCD), the cards came with originals opened packs, all of which were soft packs. Also, more recently, Leon came across an unopened Pirate soft pack which had a card inside. Leon can hopefully fill in more details here. Lastly, I've conversed with the British Cigarette Pack Collectors Club. One of its board members filled me in on the history and the timeline for Pirate slide and shells. Pirate utilized slide and shell starting in the 1920s and into the 1950s.

[canjond]

FYI - here is a Pirate softshell from my collection:

[canjond]

Originally Posted by rman444

Jon - interesting. I have never seen a Pirate soft pack, but many slide and shells. What leads you to believe that the Pirate backed cards were not issued in the slide and shells and these are not circa early 1910's? The number of Chinese beauties/warriors Pirate backed cards leads me to believe that they were issued in the slide and shells.

To add something to the Pirate discussion from yesterday that I failed to mention the first time... while I feel confident that T-215 are connected with Pirate softpacks (I should qualify this since I believe there is speculation that Pirate T215s were never inserted into packs), I am unfamiliar with the Chinese cards. I have seen them before, but do not know which year(s) they were produced. If they were produced into the 1920s or later, than they could very well be associated with pirate slide and shell packs, too.

[tbob]

I don't know what a T213-3 Cobb with overprinted back would go for now but I believe there are fewer of these reported than T206 Cobbs with Cobb backs. Now that doesn't rule out the possibility that there are more unreported but they still are exceedingly scarce.