Mastro/Legendary Article in Today's NY Daily News

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

...And I am sure is watching this one closely. About now someone from SGC ought to explain what, if any, safeguards are in place to honestly review the cards of their President.

Agreed, this isn't exactly third-party grading is it? This assumes "raw" cards are being graded for him which may not be the case. A fair query nonetheless.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Agreed, this isn't exactly third-party grading is it? This assumes "raw" cards are being graded for him which may not be the case. A fair query nonetheless.

or graded cards that are then bumped up. The incentive ($$$) is there no matter if it's actually happening or not which is enough for me not to feel very good about it.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by Bicem

or graded cards that are then bumped up. The incentive ($$$) is there no matter if it's actually happening or not which is enough for me not to feel very good about it.

This was one of the observations I also had from the article.

[oldjudge]

Peter--Another individual supposedly owes Mastro the roughly $400,000

[cyseymour]

If I can read into this correctly, is it possible that on 12/13/07, Dave Forman placed a number of max bids, and then after "winning" the cards, felt that he had been shilled, and refused to pay for them?

I think it's fair to question the ethics of card grading company staff, but in this instance I don't see how it applies, since Forman was the buyer of graded cards. I think Joe Orlando owns cards, too; it's hard to imagine that a President of a grading company wouldn't have a passion for cards and not want to collect them. That in itself is not a sin. There seems to be no evidence that Forman bought anything raw and had it graded; that would certainly be hazy, but it wouldn't lack integrity unless the grading that became unobjective. But to buy graded cards, I think is okay. These people have a right to collect.

I don't think this does anything to damage the integrity of SGC's grading. I just think it's a real embarrassment for its President, which might affect SGC's image. I feel bad for him.

Disclosure: I own no high value SGC cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think we know for a fact that Dave bought only graded cards out of the Mastro auctions.

[botn]

Not sure when Jeff was hired but if it were even 10 minutes prior to Legendary filing the suit against Forman that would have been sufficient time for him to agree to a settlement on behalf of his client. The hobby is incredibly forgiving due to collectors' obsession but this is not going to be good for Dave or SGC.

Greg

[T206Collector]

Look, the people at SGC are smart, business savvy individuals. They can't possibly be stupid enough to grade their own cards for resale or otherwise. I would just like a public disclaimer to that effect to avoid the appearance or potential for improper self-grading.

[bijoem]

If I can read into this correctly, is it possible that on 12/13/07, Dave Forman placed a number of max bids, and then after "winning" the cards, felt that he had been shilled, and refused to pay for them?

My take from the article is....

Dave owes them money, but they also owe Dave money and they are not mentioning money they owe Dave when discussing the overall figure.

Sort of like if hypothetically you owe me $100, and I owe you $90.... but all I talk about is the $100 you owe me (ignoring the $90 I owe you).

As far as he shilling, I guess Dave is also questioning whether or not he was shilled on the amount owed to Mastro.

[oldjudge]

Joe--If Dave won cards, then thought he had been shilled, and then decided not to pay for them why did he keep bidding in the first place? If the bidding was getting to an unrealistic level why didn't he question things then and just stop bidding? I guess that it is possible that these were left "up to" bids but, if Dave was suspicious of Mastro Auctions, why would he leave these?
Was Dave intending to pay these debts off through grading services? Did this strategy fall apart when Mastro Auctions went belly up forcing Dave to have to come up with the cash? These are questions I would like answers to. Also, I wonder if you can be completely objective in grading cards for someone that you owe a lot of money to?

[Sean_C]

Just me, but I'm hoping that none of the parties settle, as I'd love to see this one aired out in the public.

[Basilone]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Was Dave intending to pay these debts off through grading services? Did this strategy fall apart when Mastro Auctions went belly up forcing Dave to have to come up with the cash? These are questions I would like answers to. Also, I wonder if you can be completely objective in grading cards for someone that you owe a lot of money to?

Excellent questions...

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Basilone

Excellent questions...

There are so many excellent questions to ask Mssrs. Mastro and Allen that who would know where to begin? I think our Mr. Lichtman might .

[sportscardtheory]

The glaring omission from this article and from everyone's replies, is the fact that the consignments were sent out before they were paid for. This entire situation is hinged on the fact that Mastro/Legendary sent out consignments without being paid first... otherwise, there is no story whatsoever. The items would be returned or re-auctioned. The fact that they sent out consignments without being paid makes it entirely their fault/problem. Another thing, if the guy from SGC bought items from them, never paid and resold the items he won, how could he not have the funds to pay for his winnings??? And if he didn't sell them, why has he not returned them? That is as shady as it gets and he (and anyone else that did this) should go to prison for theft for not returning the items he never paid for. I guess what I'm saying is, these people should go to jail. This shouldn't be a "you owe me money" situation. This is a "you stole my items" situation.

[Basilone]

.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Joe--If Dave won cards, then thought he had been shilled, and then decided not to pay for them why did he keep bidding in the first place? ...

I could be wrong but....
My take from the article is that Dave owes Mastro money.... but Mastro also owes Dave money. Yet... Mastro is asking for the entire money Dave owes them (ignoring the amount they owe to Dave).

Again - if you owed me $100, and I owed you $90.... would you send me the entire $100 and then 'hope' to receive the $90?

Where the shilling comes into play is....
At this point (now that this is a legal matter) why not question whether or not the money owed to Mastro is legitimate? If the items were shilled, should Dave pay the entire amount to Mastro? I think not.


And.... MOST IMPORTANTLY....
Mastro has an obligation to the consignors regardless of any money's owed to them by other people. I cannot operate a business and shaft my suppliers if I get shafted.

IMO -
Opening up "Legendary" and running away from Mastro - is just about as crappy as it gets.... and on top of that.... they must think everyone in the hobby are morons.

[rhettyeakley]

Wow, I gotta admit this is pretty disturbing to me in regard to Dave Forman and SGC.

I always thought that the heads of grading companies shouldn't be actively involved in buying/selling/etc. while they are at the helm of the grading company. While in college I minored in Archaeology/Anthropology and there isn't a respected Archaeologist in the country that also collects antiquities (if they want to be taken seriously by their collegues), it seems to me the same type of conflict of interest would exist here.

-Rhett