Discussion about B.S.T. Auction End Times and Determining an Auction Winner...

FrankWakefield · #1 06-23-2009, 06:52 PM

I think the 5 minute rule fixes the problem mentioned...

With these bids:

Bidder #1 bids $100 at 9:58 pm...
Bidder #2 bids $120 at 9:59 pm...
Bidder #3 bids $130 at 10:00 pm...
Bidder #4 bids $150 at 10:01 pm...

The $100 bid moves closing time to 10:03

The $120 bid moves closing to 10:04

The $130 bid is timely, and moves closing to 10:05

The $150 bid is before the new closing, and moves the closing to 10:06

No other bids follow, so at 10:06 Bidder #4 wins. And with the 5 minute rule bidders 1, 2, and 3 have had a chance to bid again.

I agree with what Barry says about who could bid after the advertised closing, it should only be folks who've actually bid, I'd think. No new bidders after the advertised closing.

And believe me, the time zone needs to be specified!!!!! I screwed that up myself.

sox1903wschamp · #2 06-23-2009, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I think the 5 minute rule fixes the problem mentioned...

With these bids:

Bidder #1 bids $100 at 9:58 pm...
Bidder #2 bids $120 at 9:59 pm...
Bidder #3 bids $130 at 10:00 pm...
Bidder #4 bids $150 at 10:01 pm...

The $100 bid moves closing time to 10:03

The $120 bid moves closing to 10:04

The $130 bid is timely, and moves closing to 10:05

The $150 bid is before the new closing, and moves the closing to 10:06

No other bids follow, so at 10:06 Bidder #4 wins. And with the 5 minute rule bidders 1, 2, and 3 have had a chance to bid again.

I agree with what Barry says about who could bid after the advertised closing, it should only be folks who've actually bid, I'd think. No new bidders after the advertised closing.

And believe me, the time zone needs to be specified!!!!! I screwed that up myself.

Frank knocked this one out of the ballpark. I agree completely.

barrysloate · #3 06-23-2009, 07:08 PM

I think there is the small problem of combining two different systems. Ebay is unique from catalog auctions in that it ends precisely at a particular second, so sniping is a big part of one's strategy. There is no sniping in a catalog auction.

However, the BST seems to be set up like a catalog auction, but with sniping at the end, even though there is no descending clock. It's still new and will have some growing pains.

slidekellyslide · #4 06-23-2009, 07:21 PM

Frank's idea seems to be the way to go IMO.

sbfinley · #5 06-24-2009, 12:35 AM

I agree with the five minute rule. But it is entirely up to the auctioneer. And hey, If the auction runs over, I believe it's a positive for the seller. Any way, shape, or form of it I am extremely pleased with both the B/S/T and the auction threads lately as there have been a plethora of swag to be had.

Adam · #6 06-24-2009, 01:21 AM

I hope the ability to edit a posting (and thus the ability to edit a bid) never becomes an issue. Take this example:

- At 3:00, someone bids $100 for Item A;

- At 3:10, a person who had planned to bid $11 for Item A does not post their bid, as they see the $100 bid posted at 3:00;

- At 3:14, the person who placed the $100 bid at 3:00 edits that bid down to $10, as it was never their intention to bid $100, they merely hit an extra zero by mistake;

- At 3:15, the auction ends as per the end time previously indicated by the seller.

The end result is an auction item that should have sold for $11 instead selling for $10 due to the ability to edit a post.

(note: The solution to this could be an explicit prohibition, or rule, on editing after placing a bid.)

Leon · #7 06-24-2009, 06:34 AM

A post will always be shown to have an edit in it when one is done. If anyone tries any funny business I doubt they would get away with it for very long. I can't imagine we would let that person be on the board any longer either....

I still go back to my originall KISS method of saying when it ends....but again, what do I know?. "All bids must be in before XX"
...Some day maybe we will integrate some auction s/w into the BST but that would be a big undertaking and is not on the agenda at this time.....

FrankWakefield · #8 06-25-2009, 06:44 AM

Matt and Brad,

Let go of the idea of seconds ( units of time ) in your heads, to understand this. Here on this board, at present, time is measured in increments of minutes. It matters not of the Net54 clock goes from "9:59" to "10"00" at 9:59:31, or 10:00:00, or when....

If a bidder bids $200 at 9:59pm in an auction closing at 10:00pm with a 5 minute rule, then what seems simple is that the auction ends at 10:04, and any bids that are posted with a 10:04 time would be accepted... If someone constantly monitoring and refreshing the thread saw that a $210 bid with a time mark of 10:04 actually occurred 5 minutes 26 seconds or 5 minutes 47 seconds after that $200 bid would be making that observation with a false perception of precision.

It seems obvious to me that 5 minutes is 5 minutes. And you don't cut off the auction 4 minutes later with a 5 minute rule... If I understand what you guys are querying it would be similar to when was the milleinium? Lacking a year 0 anno domini, the year 1000 would have been the 999th year, 2000 the 1999th year, and all of the hoopla at New Year's January 1 2000 was a year early.

Simply, 5 minutes is 5 minutes. An auction ending at 10pm with a 5 minute rule and a bid marked 9:58 would end at 10:03, that is at the conclusion of the 5th minute after that 9:58 bid. A bid marked 10:03 would be timely, a bid marked 10:04 would be late.

Surely it isn't being suggested that a 5 minute rule means 4 minutes???

Leon · #9 06-25-2009, 07:26 AM

Crazy me would have thought an auction ending at 10 with a 5 minute rule would have ended at 10:05 with no bids after 10, regardless of bids before 10.....I am far too simple minded....

Matt · #10 06-23-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I think the 5 minute rule fixes the problem mentioned...

The $150 bid is before the new closing, and moves the closing to 10:06

No other bids follow, so at 10:06 Bidder #4 wins. And with the 5 minute rule bidders 1, 2, and 3 have had a chance to bid again.

Frank - maybe I'm missing something, but in your scenario, if a new bid is recorded at 10:06, won't that be the same issue raised above? Is that bid after the 10:06 auction close? As I said, I don't think the 5 minutes solves anything other then the theory that it might help the seller get more money, but again, that was disproved by the factual case we had in the BST.

sox1903wschamp · #11 06-23-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Frank - maybe I'm missing something, but in your scenario, if a new bid is recorded at 10:06, won't that be the same issue raised above? Is that bid after the 10:06 auction close? As I said, I don't think the 5 minutes solves anything other then the theory that it might help the seller get more money, but again, that was disproved by the factual case we had in the BST.

If a bid from one of the original bidders comes in at 10:06, the auction now closes at 10:11pm. Correct? And so on and so on until 5 minutes passes w/o a bid. Same principal as say H&S except that is a 30 minute clock.

Rob D. · #12 06-23-2009, 07:26 PM

But, Michael, if it closes at 10:11 p.m., does that mean that a bid with a time stamp of 10:11 p.m. is valid? If it does, then the auction really doesn't close at 10:11. It would be closing at 10:12. That's the point Matt -- correct me if I'm wrong, Matt -- and I are making.

A "five-minute" rule, while having some positive attributes, doesn't really address the original potential problem that was brought to light.

Edited to add that it all goes back to Leon's suggestion that the seller merely needs to say what the latest time stamp on a bid is acceptable. Much simpler and it solves the problem that was raised.

Matt · #13 06-23-2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sox1903wschamp

If a bid from one of the original bidders comes in at 10:06, the auction now closes at 10:11pm. Correct? And so on and so on until 5 minutes passes w/o a bid. Same principal as say H&S except that is a 30 minute clock.

Brad's issue was that if the auction closes at 10:06 then there was ambiguity as to whether bids with a 10:06 timestamp count or not since they are passed 10:06:00 which is when the auction ended. If you want to say that "auction ending at 10:06" actually means 10:06:59 then you could do that without a 5 minute rule as well. The 5 minute rule does nothing to address Brad's point unless I'm missing something...

Edited to add that Rob beat me too it. Exactly.

sox1903wschamp · #14 06-23-2009, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Brad's issue was that if the auction closes at 10:06 then there was ambiguity as to whether bids with a 10:06 timestamp count or not since they are passed 10:06:00 which is when the auction ended. If you want to say that "auction ending at 10:06" actually means 10:06:59 then you could do that without a 5 minute rule as well. The 5 minute rule does nothing to address Brad's point unless I'm missing something...

Edited to add that Rob beat me too it. Exactly.

I see your points but since we do not go down to the second on the time stamp, I think a bid that comes in at 10:06 is valid. 10:07 is not valid. So if we had a bid at 10:01, anything 10:06 or before is valid and anything stamped 10:07 is too late. So the minutes of 10:02,3,4,5,6 add up to 5 full minutes passed without a bid and the auction is over.

Matt · #15 06-23-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sox1903wschamp

I see your points but since we do not go down to the second on the time stamp, I think a bid that comes in at 10:06 is valid. 10:07 is not valid. So if we had a bid at 10:01, anything 10:06 or before is valid and anything stamped 10:07 is too late. So the minutes of 10:02,3,4,5,6 add up to 5 full minutes passed without a bid and the auction is over.

But that's no different then ending at 10 PM and saying 10 PM means bids including those with a 10:00 time stamp will be counted. No need for a 5 minute rule to address this concern.

And just to reiterate - this is an ambiguous issue and up to each seller to decide for themselves how they will handle it.

sox1903wschamp · #16 06-23-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

But that's no different then ending at 10 PM and saying 10 PM means bids including those with a 10:00 time stamp will be counted. No need for a 5 minute rule to address this concern.

And just to reiterate - this is an ambiguous issue and up to each seller to decide for themselves how they will handle it.

Matt: If you end at a straight 10pm the bidders have no shot to respond to a bid placed right before the 10:01 timestamp. Correct? On the BST, with a hotly contested auction, your screwed if someone gets that last bid in just before the time stamp changes to 10:01. At least with the 5 minute rule, you can react... right? Am I missing something? It sounds like you are saying "get your best bid in by 10:00" but I would think the seller would prefer someone to be able to react against a high bid coming in at the last moment.

And I agree, it is an ambiguous issue that is up to the seller and I am basing my thoughts off of Frank's outlined plan.