Even the so called good guys...ugly hobby?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they disclosed who their consignors were.

[Leon]

He also came back on the board and said they quit doing that. I think to true collectors there are mixed feelings on removing a crease or wrinkle. I am sort of undecided on it myself but I might also be the large minority and most might have an issue with it....At any rate, if I am not mistaking, they said it wasn't worth the benefit for the grief (or perception) and they quit doing it. I am pretty sure they aren't the only auction house that was doing it.....For the record Scott B and I made it a rule not to touch a card, from day 1. best regards

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Leon

For the record Scott B and I made it a rule not to touch a card, from day 1. best regards

That must make shipping cards very difficult Leon?

[wonkaticket]

Barry I love ya man I hope you know that!

But if I’m being honest I’m a little surprised that you are so quick to disregard Kevin’s comments. As a person purely your choice but you are a rare exception here and walk the fine line of a collector/fellow member but more importantly a leading auction house.

Not saying we string anyone up but as an auction house owner not sure I would be so publicly forgiving of Kevin’s comments.

Cheers,

John

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

He also came back on the board and said they quit doing that. I think to true collectors there are mixed feelings on removing a crease or wrinkle. I am sort of undecided on it myself but I might also be the large minority and most might have an issue with it....At any rate, if I am not mistaking, they said it wasn't worth the benefit for the grief (or perception) and they quit doing it. I am pretty sure they aren't the only auction house that was doing it.....For the record Scott B and I made it a rule not to touch a card, from day 1. best regards

And Kevin came right back on the board and said he was lying. I feel like the pitchforks are coming out for him here and I just don't get the feeling like this guy was duping us all in the same way that Patrick Chan was doing. I understand the birds of a feather thing regarding his association with Scott Elkins (and if anyone should hold a grudge against him it should be you), but should we also get the pitchforks out for Jim Rivera who worked with Elkins on the Black Old Mills? I've found in the sports memorabilia hobby it's hard to sometimes separate the good guys from the bad guys and there seems to be a lot of intermingling....even a few folks at some of the esteemed grading companies don't seem to have the most stellar background in this hobby. In the memorabilia hobby there is a lot of behind the scenes rumblings about who is doing what, but not a lot really gets done.....and I think the main reason is one of the overall driving factors - someday this guy may have something I 'NEED' for my collection.

[wonkaticket]

One thing I always found really odd was the direction Kevin took on some of these things.

“I wish...but no. Although I can make many or some of the colors disappear and come close, I don't know of a way to keep the yellows, name, borders and the light shades. Yellow ink is about the 2nd to go. I've tried man many times to recreate this and can't come close to the detail.”

Why do you have to try and make forgeries and altered/trimmed cards to understand them or know how to debunk them? Perhaps I can see this on a very very small percentage of things where having firsthand knowledge could come in handy, but on others it makes no sense to me.

Example Kevin trimming cards…plenty of trimmed cards out there to look at to know what to look for no need trimming cards and sneaking them past grading companies.

Bleaching cards why? We know why the T206’s below are the way they are they missed part of the color process of the lithography printing process. No mystery why to try and replicate them which he clearly says he’s tried above?



I was able to examine the Old Mill OP and debunk those and even explain to you guys what to look for and why they were bad. I didn’t need to make a stamp and start making my own overprints to understand what to look for too debunk them...this method has always seemed very odd to me.

Also we bust on grading companies all the time how does figuring out ways to sneak things past them make the situation better or make their jobs any easier. I agree with the person who compared it too sneaking a knife past airport security your no National hero just kind of a putz.

Most of that sneaking stuff past PSA and SGC stuff was self serving at best to make Kevin appear to be smarter than the 3rd party guys no wonder they didn’t welcome him with open arms.

And after seeing what Kevin wrote in those emails perhaps it was self serving in more way than one…just food for thought.

Cheers,

John

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Most of that sneaking stuff past PSA and SGC stuff was self serving at best to make Kevin appear to be smart

How smart can he be to expect that a cretin like Elkins wouldn't somehow screw up and release that ridiculous email to the world?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

How smart can he be to expect that a cretin like Elkins wouldn't somehow screw up and release that ridiculous email to the world?

As a person who represents many cretins I must protest at having my clients lumped in that grouping! Now my clients who are idiots and morons would be OK with it.

[barrysloate]

Hey John- allow me to rephrase:

I think what Kevin said in the email was dreadful, but unless I am forgetting something he seemed to be a straight shooter up until you posted that. Do I think he is being honest when he says he didn't mean what he said? Probably not, but I'm giving him a few points for past good behavior. I do understand you are angry, however; and you have been a great friend so I will support you, of course.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hey John- allow me to rephrase:

I think what Kevin said in the email was dreadful, but unless I am forgetting something he seemed to be a straight shooter up until you posted that. Do I think he is being honest when he says he didn't mean what he said? Probably not, but I'm giving him a few points for past good behavior. I do understand you are angry, however; and you have been a great friend so I will support you, of course.

Barry I'm not the least bit angry with you just so we are clear..confused was more my stance.

And I understand the point system..LOL

[wonkaticket]

Dan ok fair points but here are the only two possible outcomes based on Kevin’s comments IMO.

A.) Kevin is braggart and blowhard who likes to tell stories (Incriminating) offline in private emails. Which means he isn’t 100% truthful with what he discusses which blows his creditability as a non-biased expert in the field of doctored cards.

B.) The very clear nature of his statements are just that he’s bragging about genuine things that he has done to alter cards and place them in the hobby out of pure spite. This would make him a Patrick Chan type offender.


Either one is not good (A.) makes him not trustworthy and (B.) makes him a criminal...even in the link above to the Nodgrass post from 2008 Kevin says…

“I would really like the opportunity to examine one of these fake Nodgrass cards in person.”

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+Beloved+Hobby

Would you send cards to a person who has typed what he typed regardless of point (A.) or (B.) stance?

For years now anytime anyone ever asked him a question he has always come from a stance of how dare you question my integrity or motives. This from a guy who popped up out of nowhere as an expert 2 or so years ago?

His response to me in a previous thread.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...e+1933+Goudeys

“I have no problem showing my various alterations that have been graded but as typical I find your arrogance and demeaning tone insulting to say the least. Here are just "a few" examples of some cards that were not just slightly altered or simply soaked....those can always get past. These were testing the limits in various ways. I can only imagine this will still not satisfy your relentless attempt to try and degrade and demoralize. I am quite sure that you will find some other way to continue your antagonistic questioning.”


Well not only do I still question you Kevin but I’m glad I did!


http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...206+or+others-

“John, think what you'd like but a transaction with me would all but guarantee the card would not be altered."

I will respond to that comment from June 10th 2007 with a quote of yours….


“Our secret - I have never sold an altered card but for those few "true asses" on 54, I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection (some more than one)....it will be their guess as to which one. I'll tell them exactly that some day. Again...I didn't make a penny (it actually cost me) but well worth it .”

Kevin Saucier

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

even a few folks at some of the esteemed grading companies don't seem to have the most stellar background in this hobby

Just imagine IF we had a situation where the fox was guarding the henhouse.