E98s: difficulty of cards, colors, and set as a whole

[sesop]

I went into the Net54 archives and noticed a big disparity of the perceived difficulty of E98s in terms of background color as a whole and/or individual cards in any given color.

Caramel-cards.com lists the E98 set as "A little harder to find, borderline difficult."
Do you think this is accurate?
What cards do you have from this set?
What color are the backgrounds?
What do you think about difficulty level of any given card or the set as a whole?

Here are my two E98s:

Picked this up on the BST last night from Tim. Looking forward to the postman delivering it.


Won this on eBay in January:

[barrysloate]

I believe Hippo Vaughn is considered among the toughest cards in the set. I forget the order of color scarcity but it should be in the Net54 archive.

[phlflyer1]

Barry is right that Vaughn is considered one of the tougher cards in the set.

As far as scarcity between the different background colors, you will get mixed opinions. There are some who believe Red backgrounds are tougher while I've seen others say Green is the toughest.

My personal opinion is that the Red and Green seem to be slightly tougher than the other two colors but that there is not a huge difference in scarcity between the four background colors.

[makersmarkambassador]

I had 16 of the 30 all different colors and mostly common players. Not really common price but just players that were easy to get at the time. Dave F and TBob are the 2 experts I believe that may be able to help get in the right direction.

[asphaltman]

As far as difficulty of the players within the set-


Here is my thoughts, these are the top six toughest cards in the set going by my experience....a couple of these i've noticed have been hoarded by collectors going after that particular player in the set so that may play into it a bit....

Coombs
Vaughn
Tenny
Mack (the toughest of the HOF'ers in the set IMO, I'd put Walsh next but down the list.)
Chase
Dahlen

Very subjective and opinions can vary....

[Michael Peich]

Dave--A good post, and I agree on the Vaughn and Mack in degree of difficulty. I can't speak to color difficulty but I have always been under the assumption that red is the difficult color. This is information culled from two of the e-card experts: Bob Marquette (the recently silent T-Bob) and Scott Mosley. In fact, it was Scott who inspired me to start after I saw his incomparable complete set. I have focussed on the orange backgrounds and need another fourteen to complete, including Dahlen and Mack--hint, hint.

Cheers, Mike

[asphaltman]

Mike-

I've never figured out anything with the colors. I've owned three Vaughns...all were red. I've owned three Coombs, all were red. I've owned five Tenny's, four of the five were orange, one was green. I almost think the colors are just a shot and the dark and I don't know that any of them are that much more difficult in any huge increment, but as you said that is where TBob is best to answer.

[calvindog]

One would have to be truly demented to try to collect all cards in all colors.

[cfc1909]

not an expert on these but I chose red for my type because I thought it was the most difficult color

[Rob D.]

I can speak only to Lajoie in the E98 set. The blue background was by far the toughest for me to find -- as evidenced by its condition compared to my other three. During my search for the blue I exchanged e-mails with a number of veteran collectors of caramel cards, and each could remember seeing very few over the years.

I'm wondering whether a more appropriate angle would be designating which player/color combos are toughest rather than just the background itself. But again, I defer to the experts on this set, of which I certainly am not.

[E93]

My subjective instinct was to say that red is the toughest color. In the end, I think the colors in E98 are probably pretty evenly distributed and it is just that some appear more frequently than others at any given time.

The list above of the tough ones coincides with my experience. I don't know if Mack is the toughest of all, or just seems that way because he is in more demand than the tough commons.
JimB

[tbob]

I've found red to be the toughest color but I have seen more reds bouncing around lately. I've put the set together 4 times card by card and sold them off to buy other cards but I have kept my last set and am very close to an all red subset. The red Lajoie is really tough for some reason and that is still the one card I regret selling and one I need.
As far as order of scarcity, a few more Vaughns and Coombs have appeared lately but I think those are still the two toughest commons, followed by Dahlen and Kling. Chase is not easy but I think he has been hoarded and his availability is influenced more by this fact (popularity) than true scarcity.
As far as the Hall of Famers go, Walsh and Mack are the toughest by far. Wagners are being hoarded (again because of popularity) but Ed and Connie are very hard to find. Interestingly, most Walshs which appear have red backgrounds, directly contrary to the color scarcity tables. The orange Walsh is the toughest to find for some reason. As far as Mack goes, the pose and popularity make this card overpriced (IMO) and tough. I have been searching for a red Mack for some time but usually I only find blues and greens and those in lower grade.
A master set of E98s is doable. Obviously there are 4 Cobbs, 4 Wagners, 4 Youngs, 4 Macks, 4 Lajoies, 4 Vaughns, 4 Coombs', etc. but it is doable if you have the money and don't mind upgrading along the way, unlike the master set of E94s which has cards which rarely if ever surface in particular colors.

[caramelcard]

I collected E98s for a long time and have had over 150 of them with 111 different player/color backgrounds. With 9 left to go I stopped because I needed 2 wagners, 2 cobbs, 2 youngs, a lajoie, and a mack among them and I was interested in so many other sets.

After studying the set for some time, I don't really think any color is that much harder than another and all the players are readily available if you're even a tad bit patient.

But, based on the data that I have from the cards I accumulated, I can say:

I had less green background cards than others.

Cobb and Wagner are the easiest cards to find. (This is probably because collectors or even casual owners of these cards are not likely to misplace or throw away a cobb or wagner card). Cy Young (or irv) is third easiest in my opinion.

Players like Vaughn, Coombs, Dahlen, and Bridwell were tougher the find for the opposite reason.

Mack and Matty are tough because they're popular poses and well sought after.

Walsh is fairly tough to find and I'm not sure why. I did manage to find all four of them.

A master set is possible, but it takes a bit of cash and some staying power. You have to be one that's willing to settle for several cards in less than good condition.

Overall, it's a fun set and collecting all 4 of the colors brings you back closer to the mystery of why the set is anonymous.

Were different colors thrown into different products?

Were different colors thrown into the same product in different cities?

Does the Old Put brand prove that it was a tobacco issue or was it simply stamped on a stack of cards by a cigar retailer and handed out to good customers?

Why is it called E98 when the only iota of evidence that we have supports a T designation?

Anyways, I'll stop rambling. It's a great set and good luck with it.

Rob

[Tim Kindler]

E98s are an awesome set to collect. I love the vibrant colors and the great sepia tone like images of the players. I echo the thoughts of other experienced/advanced collectors on this site like Rob A. and Bob M. in that a Master Set is possible, yet difficult and tough on the wallet. I have owned as many as 55, almost 2 complete sets, at one time, but am currently down to just a handful. Like many others, I started with great intentions to build a master set, yet for whatever reason, money-patience-boredom, I gave up. Maybe I'll try again someday, maybe not.

Oddly enough, in my experience I found that RED background cards were the easiest for me to find and purchase. My collection was pretty well balanced with the number of Red, Blue, and Orange background cards. It was the GREEN background that I owned the fewest of by far.
To me, Mack and Walsh are the hardest Hall of Famers to find. In the commons I found that Vaughn and Coombs are tough (Although like Bob, I have seen more of these for sale lately). The Tenney always seems to be tough and a McLean in Vg or above is extremely hard to find in my opinion.

As for the Old Put Stamp Back, I wish I knew the story behind those. I have tried to do research on Old Put Cigars and always seem to run into dead ends with no real results. I do agree with the theory that they were probably stamped by a person at their business for advertising purposes and didn't come from a factory stamped. The only problem that I see that throws a wrench into this theory is that all but 1(Leon owns a Blue Clarke, and I believe I read that someone else has seen another Blue backed player with the stamp too. Can anyone confirm that sighting?) of the E98s with an Old Put Stamp have the RED background. Could it be possible that a store owner had a stack of all but 1 or a few E98s that ONLY had a RED BACKGROUND? And NO duplicates for that matter, because of the Old Puts known, there is supposedly only 1 known of each! Who really knows for sure?

***What I would like to know about OLD PUT backed E98s is an accurate registry/inventory of all that exist. On the SGC registry there is a place for Old Puts. It has 1 card a CHANCE. Does someone on the board own that card? Does anyone on the board own an E98 with an Old Put stamp that they are willing to post/ confirm (player and background color please). I do know that Leon owns a Blue Clarke and the Red Bresnahan. (Leon, if you are ever interested in selling, let me know.) I own the WAGNER SGC 20, the COLLINS PSA 2, the BROWN SGC 30, the YOUNG SGC 30, the MCGRAW SGC 30, and the COBB SGC 40 (Recently purchased through REA, hence the selling of much of my current E98 set on the BST!) Years back, I saw a Meyers Old Put back for sale in a Festberg auction. If anyone has one, let's see if we can get an accurate checklist of all the Old Puts that exist!

Interesting and entertaining thread!

[Tim Kindler]

OOPS! I almost forgot! CALVINDOG, that green Chase that you have is immaculate! The green color jumps off the page and I love that image of Prince Hal!

Beautiful Card!

Oh, Rob D. Love the Lajoie display. It really shows how the colors jump from these E98s!

[caramelcard]

Hi Tim,

Good to hear from you again. I've followed your E98 collecting for quite some time and that's quite an accomplishment to have that many Old Puts especially with those big boys in there. Many of the cards that you own have been "passed around" between members here for years and it's nice to see that one person is crazy enough to go after them.

As for your question of whether or not there's another blue background Old Put the answer is yes. I own a Dooin blue background with an Old Put back. The card is in horrible condition due to what looks like some water damage, but it's a legit stamp, albeit faded compared to most that we've seen.

And for an accurate checklist of which Old Puts exist, looks like you have a good start. I do also recall seeing a Meyers in an auction.

Tbob: Which Old Put did UPS lose? Was it Clarke?

Scott Brockelman might have more input on other Old Put players that exist.

Rob

[Tim Kindler]

Seriously, Rob it is good to hear from you. I believe that you definately know as much if not more about the E98 set that anyone in the hobby. MANY of the E98s that I have either owned or currently own came from your collection. I believe that the OLD PUT McGraw that I recently picked up in a 19th Century Only auction was yours at one time. I didn't know you had a Blue Dooin. Congratulations, That is great news! It also adds another to the checklist. It may also help add to the theory of a store owner stamping them himself, because as I stated above, it would seem doubtful that the owner had only RED backgrounds to stamp. Of course there was that Green Jennings that someone tried to pass as authentic a few months back. NOT EVEN CLOSE!
Anyways happy collecting up in the Great Northwest. I hope to meet you again at the National in Cleveland again this year. It was an honor to meet you in Chicago last year. I live near Fort Wayne, Indiana, and really enjoy the fact that it is smack dab between Chicago and Cleveland and I get to enjoy the National close to home when it is in those two cities.

Take Care,
Tim

[tbob]

Rob- The Old Put Clarke that UPS lost was a red one. Doug Allen spotted it at a National and called me at home on the phone about it, then purchased it for me. It was a real heartbreaker when UPS lost that card and the rest of the E98 set I owned at that time, all of them were heading home after having been graded by GAI.
tbob

[Tim Kindler]

Bob,
I remember reading about your shipping disaster. Something like that would really dishearten you towards grading and collecting in general...at least it would me. I can't believe none of them have ever surfaced. Anyway, I know that was a few years ago, but sorry for your unpleasant situation.

Oh, YOU are the King of E94s!

[caramelcard]

Hmm, so that means that there are two Old Put Fred Clarke cards.

Leon has a blue example and Bob had a red example.

Interesting. Thanks bob. I still think that Clarke will show up again. The card can't disappear forever right?

[phlflyer1]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Why is it called E98 when the only iota of evidence that we have supports a T designation?
Rob

Hey Rob,

To me, I would still classify it as an "E" set just based upon its back similarity to other "E" sets such as E93 and the fact that some E98s can be found with what appears to be some type of caramel or candy staining.

You and I have talked about this in the past and I like your suggestion that the Old Put stamp was possibly added later by some retailer and the cards handed out as a promotion. Its definitely possible that the cards were produced anonymously and sold to both candy and tobacco retailers to distribute as they saw fit.

Since I haven't posted anything on the new board as of yet, I thought I'd add a scan to the thread as well

[Leon]

Are you going to try to upgrade that Vaughn? You need to try for the penultimate (sic) one.

About 6-7 years ago someone that works for one of the larger dealers sent me a scan of a blue background Old Put. At the time it was only the 2nd one I had seen. regards

[E93]

Scott's greenies are out of this world!
JimB

[phlflyer1]

Originally Posted by Leon

Are you going to try to upgrade that Vaughn? You need to try for the penultimate (sic) one.

Always looking for upgrades, Leon

[caramelcard]

Hey Scott,

That card is amazing! Just incredible.


Ok everybody: Let's touch on this once again.

We call E94 "E94 George Close Candy" because cards have been found with the Close Candy overprints. We disregard the Blomes overprints and don't call the issue "E94 Blomes Chocalate" but that's besides the point. We do use the overprint to dictate the name of the issue because that's the only evidence we have.

With E98, we have the Old Put stamps present on some cards but choose not to call them T cards which is fine and not a big deal anyhow. As Scott mentions above we've seen orange candy stains on the cards many times. I don't think I've ever seen an Old Put with stains, but who knows.

The fact that E98 look like other candy cards could be similar to issues like T216 or T208 that also look like candy issues.

Just for the sake of argument...

Rob

[asphaltman]

I don't think you can go on "E" or "T" just on looks. Heck there are D-issues which to me look more like E's or T's.