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#51
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
I recall well what you are reporting....and, I still have all the Beckett's and CPU's (Card Prices Update....a monthly |
#52
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
This find of 50+ near mint Hi# Stengel cards has occurred before with 1952 Bowman's. |
#53
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: JimCrandell
I repeat that any hedge fund set up to do this in the last five years would have enjoyed spectacular returns--like shooting fish in a barrel. |
#54
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- that's a very good point. The last five years have been spectacular, but the next five may not be as kind. |
#55
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: David Smith
Jim, |
#56
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: JimCrandell
David, |
#57
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: cmoking
"And I'd bring this up to my boss, but I don't want to lose my job." |
#58
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: peter chao
The Sports Cards and Memorabilia market is similiar in some ways to penny stocks. It also has some of the same problems. They are both thinly traded and there are problems with liquidity. |
#59
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Bill Cornell
The recognition by money managers or hedge funds of sports cards as an investment class would be a major deveopment and lead to a major leg up in the values of rare high grade pre-war sportscards. |
#60
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: David R
I just have a hard time believing that today's younger generations (under 30 and especially under 20) are going to care about, or be willing to pay as much for, these old pieces of cardboard as we are when they reach the age when they have the most disposable income. My impression is that most folks on this board are in the 35-65 age range. Younger generations seem much less interested in, or religious about, collecting baseball cards than folks of our generation. Today there are so many more distractions -- video games, text messaging, pokemon, lots of other sports that have grown in popularity, etc. -- for kids growing up. And with all the media coverage today exposing every human flaw and misstep, kids today just don't seem to look at professional baseball players with the same reverence that we did when we were kids. While many folks of our generation may be willing to shell out big bucks to get that mint condition Mickey Mantle that they could never find as a kid, or to buy that tobacco or gum card of the players their Dad or Grandfather worshipped and talked about so fondly while they were growing up, I doubt that kids today will feel the same way. |
#61
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: bruce Dorskind
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#62
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Ed Ivey
Whilst the dog ate my homework, it's still fun to post once in a while. |
#63
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: barrysloate
Is it really true that Harvey Stack had some influence on the State Quarter program? He once interviewed me for a job- at Stack's (didn't get it). |
#64
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: leon
That was fairly well thought out and maybe not quite as condescending as usual....One point I do disagree on is the amount of money spent vis a vis the auction houses by folks that at least lurk here at Net54. I am not so sure on memorabilia but on the vintage cards side I would have to guess the percentage is higher than 20%, and maybe it would approach 50%, or more. In Mastro's live auction...the total would be over 80%...I am sure. best regards |
#65
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: MVSNYC
Leon- i think your estimates are pretty optimistic, IMO. |
#66
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: leon
From the folks AT the Net54 Dinner and me being at the Mastro Live Auction....Yes, I do believe those percentages are very close....and I didn't say I was sure about the 50%....I said I was sure of the 20% and it would approach 50%....And about the Live Auction....yes, I feel close to 80% spent on the cards were folks that check this board out.....especially since the first lot was a good bit itself....best regards |
#67
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
I think it will be very difficult for hedge funds to generate high returns, regardless who they hire to advise them, for two main reasons. (1) High transactions costs when selling items -- even assuming the SP is negotiated down to zero, the typical auction house has a BP of 15%-20%; (2) when making their acquisitions they will be competing with collectors who will be looking to buy items based on their enjoyment of owning it, regardless how good an investment it is. Or to put it another way, a hedge fund's utility curve puts zero value on the pleasures of ownership. Collectors' utility curves, in contrast, typically put high values on ownership pleasures, which makes an item much more valuable to a collector than to a fund. The fund therefore will find it very difficult to outbid the collector and still garner high returns. |
#68
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: barrysloate
Also, another obvious detriment is that, as we've discussed, the baseball card industry is unregulated. Will a fund want to put tens of millions of dollars into high grade baseball cards when the sellers of those cards are quite often ethically challenged? |
#69
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Brian
<<I would have to guess the percentage is higher than 20%, and maybe it would approach 50%, or more. In Mastro's live auction...the total would be over 80%...I am sure. best regards>> |
#70
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jason L
I would imagine that hedge funds with their deep pockets could pay anyone just about anything required in order to get a card altered to obtain the realized price (return) that they require... |
#71
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Alan
I think everyone who won something at the Mastro live auction is at least a lurker, if not an active participant of this board. |
#72
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jay
Barry--Funds invest in all kinds of unregulated areas so I don't think that's an issue. What is an issue is market depth,lack of price discovery and high transactions costs. |
#73
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: dstudeba
Thank you Chad, Bill, and Corey for your posts. |
#74
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: bruce Dorskind
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#75
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jay
Bruce--For some time I have thought that a hedge fund presence in cards was a possiblity. My guess is that the most likely way that it would happen is as part of a "collectibles" fund. That would solve the market depth issue since, in addition to cards, the pool could be invested in coins, art, or any other of a number of collectible categories. |
#76
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: PC
The illiquidity point made by Peter above appears to have been confused with fund lock-ups, and Peter's point missed completely -- whilst hedge funds might lock-up their investors, the investments made by such funds are not locked-up. The investments may be more or less liquid compared to other investments, but that has nothing to do with an investor lock-up. |
#77
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Fred C
Wouldn't there have to be some type of oversight? I couldn't imagine people blindly investing money into a "collectibles fund". There's just too many ways that people can and would get ripped off. There are enough unscrupulous people out there willing to find a way to screw the general public. You could get a bunch of independent investors together but a public offering wouldn't fly (IMO) unless there were measures in place to protect the public. I guess it's unchartered territory in some ways. Could you imagine a "Memory Lane Collectibles Hedge Fund"? |
#78
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Fred, please do not give JP any new ideas; the portion of the country that answers its telephones will suffer because of it. |
#79
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Fred C
JP? |
#80
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
United States v. JP Cohen. |
#81
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Fred C
Oh yeah, that JP. I was thinking in the general terms of a name for the hedge fund. Memory Lane = Antique store = collectibles. There seems to be a Memory Lane Antiques Store in many different cities. It was kind of a generic term but with that said there is THAT possibilty... |
#82
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
As regard transactions costs, while I do not necessarily disagree that funds could for considerally less than the BP arrange to have private placements to well-heeled collectors, that in and of itself will not suffice. Funds will need to have full access to the entire collectibles marketplace, which vastly exceeds any private collector base. The way to access this market is via the auction route. My guess is that should the day come that a fund has a signficant place in the baseball collectibles market, it will overcome the hurdle of high transactions costs by having a significant ownership interest in a major baseball auction house. |
#83
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: brian
"One never sees posts |
#84
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Corey/Bruce: Corey makes a good point. Maybe the best way to make money in vintage cards is through ownership in an auction house. Barry, have any venture capitalists come calling yet? |
#85
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: barrysloate
The venture capitalist business has been a little slow lately, Jeff. |
#86
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#87
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: SC
I would have to think, with the expenses involved, that a fund investing would only be interested in individual items of $1000+ (and that's a pretty low level), probably certified, and probably key cards that are widely traded (i.e. no condition scarcities, or set scarcities). |
#88
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Misunderestimated
Ramblings: |
#89
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: peter chao
It is going to be more common, that people with money are going to display their vintage cards and memorabilia just like they currently hang paintings on their walls. It works really well in the hobby room or bonus room. |
#90
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: LetsGoBucs
I believe that several funds already identify that they invest in collectibles with a small part of their funds. |
#91
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: barrysloate
I suspect a fund wouldn't have the sophistication to buy the cards you cited. More likely they would buy items related to Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, etc. I couldn't imagine them buying W600's or E94's. Too esoteric. And N167's? How many of them come to market in a year? A Ruth jersey or game used bat is a lot more likely. |
#92
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: LetsGoBucs
Well I would disagree that the fund wouldn't have sophistication. They'd pay for the best minds available and would attempt to buy inroads to large known collectors and offer above average prices for those cards. |
#93
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: barrysloate
Well then the fund would have to solicit the expertise of a die-hard baseball card collector. Guess it could be done, but I still think Ruth and Cobb would be the way they would go. |
#94
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Not only do I agree with Barry, but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I'd do if I were investing someone else's money. I'd be buying "sure thing" investments like Mantle, Ruth, DiMaggio, Cobb, and Wagner. T206s, '33 Goudeys, '52 Topps. |
#95
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jamie
It is conceivable that a hedge fund could invest in cards with a considerable amount of money, but it would be challenging. First off, due to the auction format, they would often find themselves bidding against collectors who will often pay considerably over market value for their card. This would make purchasing 1/1's and other esoteric items somewhat impractical. |
#96
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jamie
Also, a few couple other factors that would be a detriment to a hedge fund: |
#97
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
So if someone started a hedge fund for baseball cards, bought high-end cards, altered them and sold them at astronomical prices... |
#98
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Jamie
No, it would make him a criminal. |
#99
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Fred C
Good one Al... |
#100
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How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Dollars to donuts that's happening right now. |
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