What is the "ultimate" guide?

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Posted By: Rob

Hey everyone,

With me being basically a novice collector, what would you guys consider the best publication to trust as far as making sure that I don't get ripped off when it comes to the value of a card? Also I would prefer a guide that includes sets such as Zeenuts and Fatimas, and more of the obscure sets. You can only get so far with SMR. And I also want to point out that I am not obsessed with monetary value, but I just want to learn more about the standard for all types of vintage cards.

Thanks so much as always - Rob

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

VCP

SMR is worthless.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

1- Get the 2009 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards, it is the 18th edition. It comes with a dvd that has the Catalog in pdf. This Catalog is a great reference tool.



2- If you're after old cards, you'll want Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards. It was issued in three volumes, it was reprinted as one. For prices, it is dated and of little value. For information, it is still great! Mr. Lipset's works cover Fatimas and Zee-Nuts.



3- Burt Sugar published The Sports Collectors Bible. It too is dated. I've just learned there were 4 editions. A 3rd or 4th edition would be best for you, if you're only getting one.



4- If you stay at it, you might consider watching for an affordable copy of The American Card Catalog, by Jefferson Burdick. He gave us the letters and numbers system that many folks use to identify card sets. For looking up a card it is almost worthless. For seeing where a series of cards fits in with what all else is out there, it is great.



Select 4 or 5 cards you're thinking of buying. Search eBay for them, bid very low, and see how the bidding goes on them. After watching a card for some time you'll get a feel for what is a reasonable price.

A fellow named Jim Horne did an interesting work about Zee-Nuts, too. If you can't find one of those after trying a bit, email me.

Finally, watch this board. Skip over the feuding and fussing that we occasionally do, and watch for the good stuff. From time to time there's something quite interesting on this board.



Patience, and perseverance.



Frank W.

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Posted By: Rob

Thanks so much! I just purchased the 2009 Standard...

As far as Lipset's book, is 1997 the latest edition?

Thanks again - Rob

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If I had to pick one guide, it would be the Standard Catalog. It's prices should be taken with a large grain of salt, but it checklists and describes very close to every baseball card set known to man. It's larger than the Seattle phone book. The Lipset trilogy (which can be bought in one volume) gives more written word detail to the Pre-War era.

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Rob, if you are truly interested in understanding the history of card collecting

we suggest you begin with Sir Wharton-Tigar's legendary five volume "World Index"

which was published from 1956-1990 by the Cartophillic Society of Great Britain.

It presents the most comprehensive history of tobacco cards ever published.

Most of the volumes are available for purchase from Murray's Cards in London, UK.



We would also acquire an original printing of the Burdick's American Card Catalog

which first appeared in 1939. Whilst a bit pricey, nothing beats the original.



We would suggest you acquire a copy of Richard Egan's notes on E cards.



Burt Sugar's first book adds some value as does a rarely mentioned book called

Stirling Sports Card Catalog -privately published by John Stirling in 1977.



The first Beckett Guide, "The 1979 Sport Americana Baseball Price Guide" authored by

Dr. James Beckett & Dennis Eckes provides historic and collecting insights not found

in other published works..



The Lipset Encyclopedia, whilst comprehensive, certainly needs to be updated.



As for Zeenuts- one may have to dig deep and work hard, but we urge to acquire Jim Horne's legandery

work, Zeenuts 1911- 1938. This book was privately published but is available from a few distinguished

West Coast dealers.



Once you have completed an in-depth review of the aforementioned, our final suggestion would

be to sign up for a year's membership on Vintage Card Prices and study the site on a daily or weekly

basis.



At the end of this exercise, you will no longer be a novice collector.



Good luck in your venture.



Bruce Dorskind

America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: dennis

search for the card on ebay. when you find it and it has a "buy it now",divide that price in half and you'll be close to the real price of the card.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Rob,

Mr. Lipset's volume #1 was printed in 1983, #2 in 1984, and #3 1986.

#1 is on old stuff, Old Judges and the like. Even Harper's Woodcuts, an interesting but neglected area.

#2 is for early gum and candy cards, it has the American Caramel cards, Cracker Jacks, Colgans, Zee-Nuts...

#3 is for twentieth century tobacco cards. T205s, T206s, 7s, 10s, 12s... and the others.


At some point in time these 3 were reprinted, all in one book, and that may well be in 1997 as you found. I've not seen that, but recall the advertising for it. That might be all you can find. I don't think there was any updating, just a reprinting. I'd think you could find it on ABEbooks or Alibris. And they're on eBay from time to time.


Bruce suggests the first edition of The American Card Catalog. While I'm a bibliophile and love first editions, I think one of the later printings would be better for you.

If you get the volumes I've suggested you won't really need Sir Wharton-Tigar's five volume "World Index" as suggested by Bruce above. It is great if you collect all kinds of cards world-wide. It is too much to fool with if you only collect US baseball cards. I've been waiting years for Bruce to mail me a copy of one of the Wharton-Tigar letters he has, and a copy of a WSJ article he promised. Sir Wharton-Tigar's publication is a significant achievement, but you can get by without it. I doubt that more than 2% of the folks here have even seen it.

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Posted By: Rob D.

I've been waiting years for Bruce to mail me a copy of one of the Wharton-Tigar letters he has, and a copy of a WSJ article he promised.

Rob,

This would be an example of the "fussing that we occasionally do." Like Frank says, just skip over it.

Good luck in your pursuits.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Once again, any opportunity will be taken to brag about rare holdings, rather than really trying to help a novice.

"We are not impressed."

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Posted By: leon

You are rather predictable too. best regards

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Posted By: Jason Carota

I consider myself a novice, as well. I have only been focusing on prewar cards for about two years (give or take.) Out of all of the great guides listed above, I find the best combination to be the latest copy of the Standard Catalog and Lipset's Encyclopedia (as-well-as visiting Net54 daily .) There is plenty of Zeenut and Fatima info between the two.

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Posted By: Rob

Thanks everyone. I used Fatimas and Zeenuts because I never really knew much about them before these forums and from the examples I have seen, they look great.

Again, it is nice to find a place where everyone is truly out to help each other attain their collecting goals. And of course it is nice to brag, I love seeing some amazing cards on these boards.

Rob

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Posted By: Ed Hans

Exactly where was the "bragging" in Bruce's post? It looks to me like a sincere effort to help. I must have missed something.

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Posted By: Jason L

your conscience

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Posted By: David Atkatz

<<Exactly where was the "bragging" in Bruce's post? It looks to me like a sincere effort to help. I must have missed something.>>

I guess you did.

Show me one item in his post that is actually attainable at a reasonable cost, or that contains information vital enough for a novice to justify its cost.

Yes, leon--I am predictable. I point out bull**** when I see it.

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Frank


Wharton Tigar 5 part World Index- If you would take the time
to read it carefully, you will find a number of historical references which
do not appear in the American Card Catalog or other reference books.
The fact that less than 2% ( a generous estimate indeed) have accessed this
exceptional piece of collecting history should not deter Rob from
learning about Sir Wharton Tigar and his monumental research.


Nutty Professor

We find it rather amazing that someone who professes not to collect baseball
cards is prepared to provide commentary about the best sources of information
on obscure baseball card issues.

Given your poor academic ratings, we are neither surprised nor amused
by your comment. (www.ratemyprofessor.com)



Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Talk about predictable!

Once again, let's resort to name-calling. And really, Bruce, how many times are you going to mention that website?

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Posted By: DMcD

This must be the Airing of Grievances.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Breaking news: Sudden demand sends price of lumps of coal soaring.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

If I may, I'd like to re-hijack this thread.

I think any of the later ACC reprints would be fine for an aspiring vintage collector, along with the Lipset 3 in 1 Encyclopedia Reprint plus a Standard Catalog and a Beckett Almanac. If current prices are not needed there are older versions of the Standard Catalog that reference more vintage sets than the current edition. Forbes' and Mitchell's American Tobacco Cards is also a great reference, with a lot of historical information, although it is non-sports in nature.

It appears the World Index is in the process of being updated and new editions issued. That would be something if they can pull it off and if you are a novice now, then by the time you might need them, they might be published. Serendipity.

The Cartophilic Society Books and Pamphlets are really good generally, but not for everybody. I have a number of their publications, although not the line-by-line Indexes, and refer to them frequently. They are the SABR of the hobby and I wish we had a US version that would issue a regular newsletter, monographs and the occasional gigantic guide.

A good set of alphabetical and team guides is a necessity I find, especially if you collect one player or (especially) team. I use two very old Sport Americana ones and need to find an updated version of the team book someday but they have served me well for 25 years.

If you will use it enough, VCP is also a good investment of funds.

Horne's Zeenuts book is great but if you don't collect Zeenuts or hobby references, is really not necessary.

I also recommend a subscription to Old Cardboard Magazine and urge you to look at the wealth of information on their website.

I have never seen Egan's guides but would love to add one to my collection someday,even though I suspect it's wisdom is replicated elesehwere now.

That's about it I think.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

What I also find helpful when researching values is to just do some searches at the major auction houses. If you can get some older catalogues from the last few years, great, but you can also access most of them online now. While I don't collect cards per se, I find these catalogues quite handy. Most reference books on collectibles are completely useless (I helped write one as a matter of fact). Cards may be different, I'm not sure.

Hope this helps.

greg

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The prices shouldn't be taken at face value, but the Standard Guide gives a good idea about value (relative to other issues) and rarity. It will tell you when issues are rare and when certain cards in an issue are rarer. When a common card is listed at $2,000 you know the cards are rare and expensive. The set bios are short but give the reader a good, objective idea about the issue-- how it was issued, size, etc. The Fro Joy bio gives the history of the issue but also warns the reader to be very careful of all the reprints. Before a beginner considers purchasing a card, he should take a look at what the guide says about the issue- and that the issue is listed as a legitimate issue. Some forgeries on the market are modern concoctions and won't be listed in the book. These forgeries can be avoided simply by referencing the book. The book is the size of a library dictionary, so there are more than enough listed legitimate baseball card issues for a collector to chose from.

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Posted By: leon

To get back on track....If I were just starting out I would get these references in this order:

1. Current Krause SCD of Baseball (Big Book) and a few of the older years too....as they have included and left out varying sets over the years. To me this is an easy choice of #1. Don't believe all of the prices but it's the best start you will get and a guide to the prices...and does give a brief analysis of the sets....Please make this your first one...You won't regret it.

2. Lipset's Encyclopedia volumes 1-3....You can get a consolidated (vol 1-3) one on ebay or Amazon at almost anytime. It's worth 10x what you pay, for the breadth of information in it...


4. Sports Collectors Bible by Bert Sugar...- Skip the first 3 and get the last 1 volume (1983-84) first. Volume 4 was the best and most up to date (and most correct)...


3.VCP (vintagecardprices.com) if you are going to be active all of the time....It's a good source and I use it frequently.



Last but not least is read this board a lot. You will learn quite a bit as we all do. There are a few little fights here and there but that is no different than any other dysfunctional family ......Collect what you enjoy first, and foremost, and you will be happy and have fun.....



take care.....

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I have been to one of Murray's shops in London... a long hike for nothing. I have ordered some guides for the cigarette cards from them with great success.

As for the World Index, there was a time when it just listed "Brown", with no distinction between "G. Brown, Chicago" and "G. Brown, Washington"... Some for other players with virtually identical images and different captions. Anyone know if the WI ever fix that???

That is a reason to get the other stuff and pass on the World Index.

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Posted By: John

Actually Bruce's post was very informative.

But at the same time Bruce I would resist posting links that make folks look silly via the web...glass houses etc.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/?offset=10

I see Kevin S made the Okeefe train as well with his site interesting. Which raises a loaded question what does it take to be credited an expert in our hobby. No dig at Kevin here, just seem to be a lot of folks with the title expert from auction houses, to autograph guys etc?

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/?offset=5

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

Happy Chrismukah!



BcD