Who is the one player who most deserves to be in the HOF?

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Posted By: Bob

Perhaps James has always held Minoso in high regard but for many years he has consistently said the most deserving player not in the Hall is Ron Santo. With all his gold gloves, Santo was the leader in RBIs among all major league players not an outfielder or first basemen and I believe is also in the top 5 in home runs for his era with close to 400.

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Posted By: Tim

I would vote O'Doul.

Boxingcardman -

4. Beat/assaulted spouse (Bobby Cox Flat)

Edited to add:

I would love to say Rose but he broke "The Rule" and bet on baseball. This called every game he was involved in at that time into question whether player or manager and compromised the integrity of the game on the whole. Shame on him. I really wish I could, but I can never forgive him. What a great player, what tenacious effort every single play, all wasted for a quick dollar.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Tim, Rose never bet against the Reds. Doesn't that make a difference?

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Posted By: Tim

"Tim, Rose never bet against the Reds. Doesn't that make a difference?"

He denied for years he bet on baseball at all. Then he said he did but not against the Reds. If someone could show me that he never bet against his team while he was in control it might make a difference.

But logic tells me several things:

#1 If a guy could lie to me about one thing (betting on baseball) he could lie to me about something else (betting against the Reds.)

#2 When a gambler of Rose's sickness is losing they chase or look for some quick easy way to fix their situation. Fixing a game he has control over is too easy an out for someone in the hole.
"It's only one game out of 162, I get back to even, the team gets back on track, we all win."

Edited for spelling.

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Posted By: Steve

Jim Kaat

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Tim, fair point, but Rose was never in need of cash -- and that is the type of bettor most likely to bet against their team.

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Posted By: Steve

. DUI conviction (Girardi Way)


Do you mean leyritz?

Steve


nevermind, yes I see he has one too.

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Posted By: Tim

Jeff-

Chasing and getting back to even for Rose wouldn't be about the money. It would be about the same thing that drove him to be such a great baseball player. Pride.

He felt he could look at the teams in question and devise more often than not based on his great baseball knowledge who was going to win or lose. When that didn't happen it hurt his ego far more than his wallet.

Edited to add:

Pride will drive a man to do far worse things than money.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Tim, keep in mind that the people that took Rose's bets -- and ratted him out -- never claimed he bet against his teams.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

But even if you're only betting on your own team to win, as a manager you can still make decisions that are detrimental the team's success over the course of a season. For example, if you find out your best hitter tweaked his hamstring in the first inning you'd normally consider taking him out for precautionary reasons, but if you have a sizable bet riding on that game, you might take the chance of leaving him in there. Same thing with a closer whose thrown in three straight games and whose arm is a little sore. Usually that'd be a situation where you'd consider trotting out your setup man for a rare save opportunity, but not if you have a bet riding on the game.

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Posted By: Fred C

Caruthers and Mullane have already been mentioned so here's a few position players from the 19th century:

Stovey (already mentioned)
Van Haltren
Browning or Orr (both hit over .340 lifetime - but both were pretty much one dimensional)
Tip O'Neil and the incredible season of 1887 - led league with .435 average, also led league in hits, doubles, triples, HRs and RBIs. The next year his BA dropped 100 points but his .335 average was still good enough for a second consecutive batting title.

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

Not to be a stickler but...
Hank O'Day was a terrible player -- he only gets in as a Umpire.
Babe Herman is already in the HOF (I'm pretty sure)

That said I'd go with (from different time periods) the following:

1870s-80s - Deacon White (Will White's brother btw)
(Bobby Caruthers too but his career was short, mid-1880's-early 1890's) I could go on about this era. . . Stovey, Gore, Mullane etc.

1890s-1900s - Bill Dahlen

1910's-20s - Carl Mays (will never happen)

1930's Seriously over-represented -- O'Doul probably belongs but his playing alone doesn't do it given the hyper-inflated stats of the era and relatively short career (ie not big enough career numbers)

1940's-50s I like Minnie Minoso but again that's based on more than his major league numbers -- I don't think that those numbers standing alone make him that big an ommission. Btw: Curt Flood may belong but his on the field prowess isn't the reason.

1960's-70s - Ron Santo (the most under-represented position, a great hitter and a great fielder)

1970s-80s - Used to be Gossage (Rice will likely get in but I'd prefer Blyleven)

More recent - Tim Raines (unfair to compare him w/ Henderson -- if Henderson was the standard there would be less than 60 players in now).

Barry Larkin is coming on the ballot next year and I think he won't do well but he's among the best ever at his position -- a really complete player, too.
As to the really tough ones --- Rose and the current performance enhancement candidates, Palmeiro, McGwire and later Bonds and Clemens eventually baseball will have to make its peace with them. I suppose that Sammy Sosa will be treated similarly purely based on suspicion (yes I think he used) Suspicion really is a poor basis for excluding a player with those numbers that supposedly helped rescue the game in 1998)

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Posted By: CN

How can Joe Torre not be on the list of the 15 candidates. He is the only player to hit in 4 double plays in one game. He still blames Felix Millan for being on base 4 times in that game.CN

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Posted By: Wil Jordan

Gil Hodges

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Posted By: Marc S.

I think it is hugely suboptimal for a manager to bet for his team. When Rose had money riding on his team, it could lead him to make short-term decisions that were damaging to his team in the long run. A perfect example would be keeping a star pitcher in past the point of normal wear-and-tear, so that he wins the game, but damages that pitcher's durability down the season.

Marc

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Brian I agree with many of your picks, however, Babe Herman is on the outside looking in while Billy Herman is the "Herman" that has been enshrined.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Sorry, I thought it was a given that everybody would realize I was speaking of O'Day's career as an umpire when I "nominated" him. After all, Walt Alston's lone at-bat (and subsequent strikeout) wasn't what got him up those lofty Cooperstown steps.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Marc, fair point. But betting against your team obviously has the potential for much more mischief.

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Posted By: Darren

Take a look at Al Oliver's stats when you get the chance. Lifetime avg .303 with over 2700 hits and 200 homers.

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Posted By: Glen V

Rose. He was a HOFer before he bet on baseball. Yes, that's a lame argument, but we'll hear it repeatedly for the steroid era players...

Also, pardon my ignorance, but why do so many people feel Blyleven should get in, but there's no mention of Tommy John. They have about the same numbers as far as wins, ERA, and innings pitched, yet John has 19 less loses. I didn't see either pitch, so maybe I'm missing something? Otherwise, seems like they either both deserve it or they both don't...

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Posted By: Misunderestimated

I think the "betting on your team" issue with Rose involved the allegation that he either bet on his team or did not bet on the game and that it called into question the games he did not bet and might cause him to make decisions differently in those games (use of relief pitchers, resting players etc) Also did he bet more on some games than others -- that could conceivably have the same result.

-- I guess I confused the Hermans (sorry)

-- Jodi- I apologize, I was interpreting the whole thread literally, as being about the one Player that deserve to be in the HOF.

As to non-players or people who played but belong in largely for other reasons I would add Marvin Miller and Buck O'Neill to the list. They should stop gradually inducting every single Commissioner of Baseball in chronological order. They were okay until Kuhn and the only other 2 that I really like -- Giamatti and Vincent were unfortunately not in charge very long. I would also kind of like them to induct Bill James as some sort of a contributor or maybe with the sportswriters. (?)

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Posted By: uhohursetbaby

Lee Smith.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Right or wrong... I can't help but blame Pete Rose for Giamatti's untimely passing.

For that reason alone - I hope to never see Rose in the HOF while he is alive.
To be honest... I hope to never see Rose in the HoF while I'm alive.

So.... after Charlie Hussle and I pass away.... then go ahead and let the sleeze gambler (who probably bet against his own team - are you serious in thinking otherwise Jeff? - ) into the Hall.

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Posted By: Mark

I liked the Barry Larkin post by Brian. I too think he will struggle to get enshrined, although he is so deserving of HOF honors...

Larkin was the very best at his position for many years, played his entire career for one team (during the peak of free agency) and won the MVP as well as a World Series.

And all of this while playing for a mediocre team, for most of his career. A real leader in the clubhouse, and the team captain as well. Really hope he gets in, but doubt that it will be easy.

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Posted By: Mike

The biggest injustice of all BUCK O'NEILL

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Very underrated 19th century pitcher Jim McCormick
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mccorji01.shtml

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Misunderestimated--OK, I see your point. Perhaps I should have stayed on track with the "player" aspect.

I certainly agree with having O'Neil (Buck) in C'Town. I've always liked the idea of incorporating a special "Ambassadors/Game Shapers" wing. O'Neil would get in right away, and that would put O'Doul in a second way. Certain executives such as Larry MacPhail and Veeck would have looked better being inducted in such a capacity as well.

Hats off to whoever spoke their mind about the problem of electing useless commissioners. Bulkeley, Kuhn, etc. Agreed.