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#1
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
I can't post the pictures of the ghost print so here is a link to the original article where they can be viewed... |
#2
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: barrysloate
It may not even be a T206 portrait. It may be overprinted with a personality other than a ballplayer. It doesn't even resemble a T206 in terms of style. |
#3
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: robert a.
This one's super easy. |
#4
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
Barry - the ghost overprint has "Cincinnati" printed on his jersey so I doubt it's a different personality other than a ballplayer. |
#5
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
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#6
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: judson hamlin
It bears a passing similarity to Karger (see his E96 card); any thoughts? Possibly a T206 withdrawn after he moved to the BoSox. |
#7
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
I actually should add that I think the player looks like Arthur Fromme. Fromme was traded to Cincinnati in 1908 and I believe the only year Cincinnati wore this style jersey is 1908 so it is possible it could be Fromme. |
#8
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: robert a
I think you're right Jon. |
#9
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: barrysloate
Jon- you're absolutely right. I couldn't read the writing. But I knew the face didn't match any T206 pose. |
#10
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
The mystery player on the red overprint on the T206 Casey T206 is not really a mystery -- it is Bob Bescher, from the T206 Bescher portrait version. I think what has thrown people off is that the overprint on the Casy card only involves red ink. If the black ink was added, the word "Cincinnati" -- which appears more stylized on the red overprint than on the actual Bescher portrait card -- would have black borders added around each letter, which would cover-up the stylized portions of the letters (exactly like it appears on the actual Bescher portrait, and the other T206s for Cincinnati players). |
#11
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: barrysloate
PC- it resembles Bescher but I don't see it as a perfect match. Maybe the red lips are throwing me off. |
#12
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
Barry -- imagine Bescher's face on his T206 portrait with only red ink, and perhaps a little too much red ink. All the faint shades of black and grey on his lips and cheeks would be red (and would look wierd, like the overprint on the Casey). Also, note the red ear on the right side of the Casey overprint, floating towards the border. Seems to match Bescher. |
#13
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: barrysloate
I agree it's a possible match, just not a slam dunk. I am having trouble visualizing Bescher's full face from the little bit of ink that's there. |
#14
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
Yeah, it takes a while for the mind to fill it in. I initially thought the red overprint looked like George Washington. |
#15
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: T206Collector
....that is him. Where is the red in Bescher's hat? Or on his collar? The nose to lip ratio looks about right, and the slant of the nostril and placement of Cincinatti, to some degree. But there is too much else missing. |
#16
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
Paul -- not sure why his face is printed the way it is, but if the printer put red only where the black/grey was supposed to be (and not where the red was supposed to be), then you wouldn't necessarily see the red hat lines or collar. |
#17
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Anthony S.
It suddenly dawned on me that perhaps the overprint was of a player who'd been traded during the printing run. In that case as we see on Demmitt card, for example, they use the same picture, but change the team logo on the uniform. And it never quite looks right. That would also explain why none of the T206 Cincy cards quite match up. |
#18
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Eric B
You mean my T206 Weimer card shouldn't say Cincinnati |
#19
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
Anthony - you could be correct. Maybe someone with more graphic skills than I can elaborate but here is a photoshop comparison with Weimer's picture placed over top of the ghost. |
#20
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Anthony S.
Great job, Jon. Thanks for photoshopping the Weimer and Casey images. I'm a complete luddite. Would have taken me months to accomplish that. |
#21
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Judson Hamlin
Nicely done, Jon. So much for my Karger theory . Weimer seems to be a visual match, and the timing of the trade works. That also explains the NY on his card. |
#22
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
Well I'm hoping Ted or Scot chime in here. I believe Weimer is possible with an SC 150 back but I do not know the exact timing of back distribution. It would appear to me that if Weimer was initially to be shown with Cincinnati, this card should appear with an early back. I believe Ted's theory is Piedmont 150's came first. |
#23
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Anthony S.
The Weimer I own and am looking at right now is a Piedmont 150 (the scan I used was from ebay). And I agree I'd love to heard Ted and Scot's thoughts. |
#24
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: barrysloate
Not so fast...in the first image Weimer is facing nearly forward. By the fifth image the face appears to be at an angle. Does anyone else see this? |
#25
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
Can only be Weimer if he turns to the right, and his left ear moves out a few inches. |
#26
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
PC - I also tried superimposing the Bescher portriat over the ghost but I can't get the nose, eyebrows or mouth to all align. Further, they red printing on the far right of the ghost "floates". If I stretch Bescher's ear out to accomodate it, the eyes and nose no longer match up. |
#27
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: fkw
The red overprint head is slightly more sideways compared to Weimer. At least thats what it looks like to me. Its close though. |
#28
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Anthony S.
PC, |
#29
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
John, Anthony, BRILLIANT!!! I'd buy you a Guiness if you were here! Great work. I'd looked through all of my Cincy cards and none matched. (An easy inspection when those little white border cards are sorted by team then alphabetically!!) |
#30
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
Ok - here is where I tried to line up Cescher by his facial features... close |
#31
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
About as good as I can do with limited skills: |
#32
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
PC - I tried lining up the faces better here enlarging both photos to about 400% of their true sizes before lining up the facial features. I agree with you, this is close and dare I say, lines up better than Weimer. That being said, when you look at the full scan, Cincinnati isn't even close. So, I'm left with this... |
#33
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
Thanks Jon. You just proved my theory that the overprint is Bescher, and not a previously unknown player. |
#34
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
And one more look at Bescher and the overprint. Any doubts? |
#35
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: MVSNYC
god, you guys have way too much time on your hands... |
#36
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
And to close the loop on the "Cincinnati" part of the overprint ... |
#37
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
I agree that the Bescher image is almost dead-on (as close as I can tell). However, that still has me asking two questions... |
#38
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: T206Collector
...a version of Bescher that never made it through. If it was with no hat or collar, it would have today been known as Bescher Portrait Without Cap/Collar. Maybe it is a lost Super Print -- Matty White Cap/Dark Cap; Chase Pink/Blue; Bescher Cap/no Cap Collar.... |
#39
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
It's not a different version of the Bescher portrait. It is Bescher's face, only in red ink. If the printer was using red where the black/grey was supposed to be, you would not see the portions of the face/head that are supposed to be in red (thus, the red hat lines and collar lines do not appear, and the light grey shadowing detail on his face has that odd red rouge look). |
#40
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Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?
Posted By: PC
Well, the T206 Museum says the overprint was identified in 2002 as Bescher, but that they are looking for the source image. Maybe if the site was updated in, say 2002, we wouldn't have wasted our time with all this (some would think we wasted time in any event). |
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