George Davis, Bid McPhee and HOF and Cards

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I believe the last two pre-war Hall of Famers were George Davis and Bid McPhee. Did their cards go up much after their nomination to the Hall? Also, are we expecting the same type of increase for other pre-war players in the future? Another possibility, is that people pretty much know which pre-war players still have a shot at the Hall and their cards have already appreciated.

Also, why was such a large class of Negro Leaguers elected this time? Did their cards increase after they got in? Has most of the key Negro Leaguers already gotten into the Hall?

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill

As far as I can tell, actually being nominated into the HOF does not affect the value of a card. The value is already there before this action is taken.

It's kind of like in today's world when an athlete of any kind dies. You'll see a buttload of that player's cards on eBay with people advertising that the player just died, as if that makes the value higher. In reality, it doesn't affect the value.

So, as far as I know, actually making the HOF does nothing to the value.

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

"The National Baseball Hall of Fame features 280 members, including 2007 inductees...Included are 198 former major league players, 35 Negro leaguers, 23 executives or pioneers, 16 managers, and eight umpires. The Baseball Writers' Association of America has elected 105 former players to the Hall of Fame, while the Hall of Fame Committee on Baseball Veterans has elected 148 candidates (92 major leaguers, 23 pioneers/executives, 16 managers, nine Negro leaguers, and eight umpires). The defunct Committee on Negro Leagues selected nine members between 1971-1977. The Hall of Fame currently has 62 living members."

that's a pretty elite club, if you ask me...so i believe entry into the Hall WILL certainly increase a player's cards value.


just my 2 cents

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Bill, So Bid McPhee cards were selling for $3,000-$6,000 before he was enshrined?

edited to direct my question towards Bill

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

I suppose for guys like Joe Dimaggio it wouldn't make much of a difference because he was a Hall of Famer from the day he became a Yankee. But for borderline players, I assume it makes a difference.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark L

I remember noticing that most dealers were increasing the price of the Davis card and the Vic Willis cards soon after they won a place in the Hall.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric Brehm

I wouldn't think that the death of a player would affect the value of his cards, but it certainly would affect the value of his autographs (including autographed cards), since at that time the supply becomes finite.

I would think that a player making the Hall of Fame would tend to increase the demand for his cards, and thus increase their values, since there are many collectors who specifically or exclusively collect cards of players who have been elected to the Hall. I know that the George Davis subject does sell at a premium, compared with those of common players, in the T206 set, although I don't know what they were selling for prior to his election.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Bland

"I suppose for guys like Joe Dimaggio it wouldn't make much of a difference because he was a Hall of Famer from the day he became a Yankee."

What the hell does this mean?

-If a pre WW1 player is enshrined into the HOF in the future, the prices on that card will go up considerably. You can get a decent Tony Mullane Old Judge card right now for under $500. If he got put into the HOF (as he should) - good luck getting that same card for under $2000.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Peter- Joe DiMaggio was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1956. In those days baseball cards were worthless. When Bid McPhee and George Davis were elected, their cards increased tenfold in value.

How could they not? There are hundreds of collectors who look for one card of each Hall of Famer. As soon as those two were elected, everyone needed one at the same time. Wouldn't that greatly increase their value?

I think the answer to that question is self evident.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Good point, Barry.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Larry Haven

Anyone that thinks HOF election doesn't increase the value of all types of collectibles associated with said players should quit collecting sportscards and start collecting brain cells.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Absolutely, when a pre-war player gets inducted to the Hall of Fame their cards suddenly become MUCH more valuable, this same phenomenon does not take place with modern MLB players (by modern I mean post war). This is due to the fact that with few exceptions (Chase, Hoy, etc.) the people that collect pre-war cards tend to group people into two groups...Hall of Famers, and Commons. So any player that is a fringe HOF candidate tend to be "commons" until they finally get enshrined. Belive me nobody was paying any more for a Vic Willis than they were for Deacon Phillippe or Sam Leever prior to his more recent induction. Also, while McPhee was a tough HOFer, the HOF collectors weren't running up the price on his OJ prior to his induction. It is funny that the Jim Rice's, Dale Murphy's, and even Don Mattingly's of the pre-war era are considered by many to be "common" as they haven't been inducted into the all-powerful HOF yet.

In the other thread I touched on the absence of American Association players that could/should be in the HOF. Among those are Mullane, Browning, Orr, Stovey, Caruthers, O'Neill, and even Mathews. I would love to see some of those guys get in (but only after I get their OJ cards)
-Rhett

[Archive]

Posted By: PaulPaulPaul

When a player unexpectedly gets in, like McPhee, the value of his card skyrockets for the reasons Barry said. This is especially so when his cards are scarce, like McPhee's cards. Vic Willis and George Davis cards certainly went up dramatically when they were elected. But both players are in the common T206 set, so these cards didn't rise as crazily as McPhee.

Where the election is expected, like Tom Seaver or Nolan Ryan or Mike Schmidt, there is almost no effect on value. The market has already taken into account their inevitable election.

There are also a few borderline players who were priced as HOFers before their election. Phil Rizzuto is a good example. Because his prices were already at Hall of Fame levels before he was elected, there wasn't much of a change after his election. I think the same will be true of Gil Hodges if he was ever elected.

On the other hand, if Dummy Hoy were elected someday, his prices would go up a lot. He is already priced like a Hall of Famer. But his cards are very scarce (compared to Rizzuto and Hodges). I suspect I am not alone among collectors in passing up Hoy's cards because they are expensive, but already having a few Hodges cards because they are cheap. If Hoy got elected, I'd want one of his cards, and I wouldn't be alone. Increased demand plus scarcity would drive up the price.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Paul- how viable a candidate is Hank O'Day in tomorrow's election?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill

Larry-Thanks for the mature approach, shows your character.

Somebody please give me some examples where a player was elected into the HOF and the value skyrocketed, and maintained that value.



Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Bill, I would think ALL of the HoF players in the Old Judge set skyrocketed and have maintained their value upon enshrinement.

[Archive]

Posted By: PaulPaulPaul

Barry, I wish I knew how strong a candidate O'Day was. I believe he was on the ballot once before and got almost no support. But that was from the full veterans committee of 60+ Hall of Famers.

The committee voting on umpires is made up of the following: Hall of Famers Hank Aaron, Jim Bunning, Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, Al Kaline, Tom Lasorda, Phil Niekro, Tony Perez, Earl Weaver and Billy Williams; former executive Jim Frey; current executives Roland Hemond (Diamondbacks) and Bob Watson (Major League Baseball); and veteran media members Jack O'Connell (MLB.com), Tim Kurkjian (ESPN) and Tom Verducci (Sports Illustrated).

My best guess is that these guys don't know who O'Day is or have any interest in voting him in. Most of the voters are Hall of Famers who have turned O'Day down before, not experts in 19th and early 20th century umpiring. Also, umpire Doug Harvey came real close the last two times. I would think that the voters might focus their attention on Harvey and see if they can pull together 75% support for him, rather than taking a serious look at O'Day.

On the other hand, the voters may have received research packets from the Hall of Fame, like the Negro League voters did. If those packets talk glowingly about O'Day, maybe he has a shot. But as far as I know, no research packets have been provided.

My best guess is that O'Day is not likely to make it. But I still don't know what inspired past Veterans Committees to vote in McPhee, Willis, Frank Selee, Ned Hanlon, and others. So maybe wierd things can happen when a small group gets together.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

You are probably right, and I don't think the group who votes for these oldtimers has any idea who any of these players are. SABR members would be more qualified to vote. Thanks Paul.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

The Vet committee that selected McPhee, Davis et al was a much smaller group (some of whom were never players) and they generally took their jobs on that committee quite seriously. They met and then decided who got in. McPhee, Davis and the managers were elected largely as a result of the influence of things that they read which included statistical analysis (Bill James, for example). I assume the same holds true for Willis although I don't recall reading anything by the "cognoscenti" that championed his candidacy. My guess is that since they met behind closed doors and simply announced their results there was some trading and persuading. Monte Irvin and Buck O'Neill educated the others about the Negro League players, for example. This is why many of the Negro League players chosen were from the leagues later years and players like Pete Hill, Christobal Torrenti were not chosen while Leon Day, for example, was.

I think the voters this year on the Vet candidates are not the same ones (or at least not all of them) that have come up empty the past few times.... Anyone voter who played since about 1972 should be ashamed if Marvin Miller is not elected.

Interestingly every Commissioner who served prior Bowie Kuhn is already in the HOF. Kuhn and the four men who succeeded him, however, are not.

I have no clue what will happen with the Umpires. A few of the one in the HOF seem obvious (Klem, Connelly & Hubbard) but some of the others I wonder about. O'Day's longevity and significance should help him if the voters are educated. Then again maybe the educated ones didn't agree with the Merkle call...