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#1
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Brian Goldner
Recently, i was the high bidder on a couple of pre-war graded lots, from a relatively well known auction house. |
#2
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: joseph
If you paid by credit card you do have an option of having them contact the seller and having them fight it out. I use to pay by check but since then I have learned to use a credit card for that added protection. Live and Learn! |
#3
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Bob
Brian- Any chance you'll let us know who the auction house was? |
#4
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Brian Goldner
Best not to disclose that information (sorry about that Bob). |
#5
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: cmoking
"They stated that there was no refund on graded cards, and if the cards were tampered with, they didn't know who did the tampering." |
#6
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Steve
I feel for you Brian as you are one of those rare people in the hobby that cares about a card aside from grading. The auction house ought to pre-screen consignments for altered inventory, even when graded, but we all know that rarely happens in this hyper-competitive environment. |
#7
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: FYS
Does the auction house have a return policy? |
#8
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: FYS
"The real issue is with the grading services. We all know (or should know) that a very high percentage of 7, 8 and 9 tobacco, candy and gum cards have been altered." - Steve Verkman |
#9
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Bob
Don't kill the messenger. Steve was only giving his opinion and it is one I, and a lot of collectors, share. |
#10
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: FYS
I also agree with the staement. I just wondered if Steve felt strongly enough not to accept high grade cards on consignement. From his July catalog, it appears that he may actually not accept high grade material. That may be a coincidence or he is a man of great virtue. |
#11
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Jay
I think you guys are crazy if you believe that a large percentage of high grade slabbed cards in SGC or PSA holders are altered. I would think that the percentage is extremely low. And lets not forget why grading became popular and accepted--because alot of dealers and auctions routinely graded cards several levels above where they should have been graded. Ring a bell? |
#12
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Jason
If this has been covered, I didn't see it and I apologize in advance, (and please just steer me to it), but if not... |
#13
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: leon
We obviously have been talking to different Sr. graders and 20-30 yr hobby veterans. IF you think most of the PSA 8 and 9, 100 yr old cards, are legit you are entitled to your opinion. I have only been doing this for 9 or so years (quite addictedly though) and, based on what I know, I would respectfully disagree with you. |
#14
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: edacra
I don't remember ever seeing pristine cards back in the 80's. |
#15
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: barrysloate
Edacra makes a good point that there certainly were less high grade cards around in the 80's. Further, just how did all these PSA 8 and 9 cards remain so pristine for 100 years? Certainly nobody was taking good care of them for all that time. |
#16
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Steve
Every catalog that we run has a different theme. We have some PSA 8 Diamond Stars in our September 29 auction that were from the original owner and are amazing. AND YES, at the National, we turned down a graded 55 Bowman Mantle 9 from an unnamed grading company because we felt it was altered. |
#17
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Bob
I don't always agree with leon (we often agree to disagree) but I feel leon is 100% right on the money with his comments in this thread and I agree completely. Anyone who doesn't believe a substantial number of prewar cards residing in high number holders haven't been altered needs a reality check. |
#18
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Jim Clarke
I will always remember a phrase that was made to me years ago from an auction company owner when I asked this question. "Do you guarentee this card to be un-altered even though it is in a holder"... His reply was "JC, let me ask you this question. If you got a card from anyone and looked at it, and found nothing wrong with it would you be happy with it?" Yes was my answer.. Then I said, if I found out later that I missed something like corners being built up, or a crease that came back after being pressed out for it to be graded, I would not. His come back was "that is why we use third party grading and all the sales are final on them" Which did not really answer my question if they would stand behind a card if the grader missed something as well. |
#19
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: John S
I also have been very suspicious of all the high grade cards that have surfaced over the last five years. I believe that steam, stretch, and trim have a lot to do with that. A NRMT T206 from 1989 would probably equate to and EX today. I know that grading standards have tightened since the late 80's and early 90's, but all these high grade cards (and I am sure that a few legit ones exist) could not be found. I remember going through countless binder pages and stacks of t206's and buying the best examples of commons that I could find about fifteen years ago. I recently had a couple graded....SGC 60. |
#20
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: warshawlaw
I think it all depends on your eye. I had several nasty fights with hobby veterans who sold the ex as near mint before slabbing. I find that my grading eye is very close to what SGC uses. I used to pick up many cards in 8-9 caliber--postwar. T and E and N and D and etc. No way. They did not exist. Some undoubtedly surfaced as the hobby matured. I've seen enough prewar finds and been on hand for enough of them, however, to know that ex or maybe ex-mt is the best you can hope for from them. No way to I believe that the 8s out there are nearly all original. |
#21
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: barrysloate
I'm sure there are people skilled in the art of paper restoration who use their talents to create mint looking cards without proper disclosure. Obviously, if their work is that good, it will be almost impossible to detect. |
#22
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: John S
Its sad Barry...hobby veterans know that these "chop-shops" must exist somewhere because we dug for these high grade examples years ago. Again, they were almost impossible to find but seem much more common today. I stick to EX and lower cards because they are less likely to have been altered and the higher grade examples have become cost-prohibitive for the middle-class collector. |
#23
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Steve
great insights in the last bunch of messages. As a dealer, I can say from experience, what many of you already know, which is that the hottest cards at shows are well centered 6s and 7s that dealers buy at full SMR or more. You don't have to be a fortune teller to guess what happens... |
#24
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Dan Koteles
many of these were trimmed to a stopped sign shape and perforated over time to the shape. One sausage -head |
#25
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Scott Mosley
I don't doubt that some of the points raised in this thread are valid and that there are cards out there which have been altered or cleaned up (in the case of removal something foreign to the card such as pencil marks or glue). |
#26
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: T206Collector
...then I would have a very hard time buying it. |
#27
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: jay behrens
Being very active in the 80s, I too wonder where all these high grade examples are coming from. You can pretty much blame Jim Copeland for the rash of trimming that altering that has gone on when started paying $100 for NM t206 commons in the late 80s. I would also be very leery of any high grade Goudeys as I know of a "doctor" that was buying up low grade Goudeys to grind up for pulp to rebuild cards. I saw his work and I couldn't tell the card was doctored. I am sure most, if not all of these cards now reside in holders. |
#28
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Troubling Auction Purchase
Posted By: Brian Goldner
The auction company decided to call back yesterday (i returned their call today), and offered that i return the items in question, so they could be sent to the involved grading service, to check for evidence of tampering. |
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