A Troubling Hobby Developement

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I accept all you have said.
But don't speak to what you yourself don't know.

In my study of graphic design / electronic design, I completed a full year of credits with focus to the printing process and all things related to applying images to paper. I did so in a full printing room with 6 color commercial heidelberg printer (30 feet long, 15 foot high, many many tonnes), and all requisite current industry standard machinery.
I worked with more presses, cutting machines, plate making, image setting, color testing, and most importantly, paper of every hue and fabrication and age - than I believe most - who at least equally have worked in this industry.
Makes me fairly expert on paper, and ink, and recognizing modern ink transfer on modern paper, and older lithographic processes.
I don't blurt this out as justification for my words, but just to have you know that in the thousands and thousands of vintage cards you have personally handled, there may just be expertise you will never gain that I have through my own life experiences.

So, always be careful of what you assume others to know, or not know.
It speaks exactly to my point in my post.

And whilst I absolutely agree that the heaviest proportion of vintage knowledge may be wrapped up in members who occasion this site, that does not mean that said knowledge is uniform, or agreed upon, or always accurate, even between Net54 members.
It is for that very reason that I find it comical for so many to constantly complain of grading, when I am absolutely positive that If we were to place 100 vintage cards before 30 different 'expert' Net54 members, there would be no less of a spread in grading opinions than what routinely comes out of the big 3 grading companies.

And, I both enjoy, respect, and think carefully on what your write, even when it is just fun-filled.



Sincerely
Daniel



Ps. I busted out an E94 Cy Young Green background out of an SGC holder recently........it was ok, I guess, not exactly up to some of the great drugs I've taken in my life, and will be going back into an SGC plastic black holder at the first opportunity. I would say that I've purchased and had in my possession at least 40-50% of my collection raw, and only graded them some time down the line. I like them graded, just as I like my catfish blackened.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Almost all your daily decisions in life are made with assumptions because it is impossible to know everything about something definatively. It's a very safe assumption that the vast majority of the people ont his board do not have a background in printing. You are an absolute exception to the average person that frequents this board with your background. It's impossible to write for all exception. Otherwise, you end up writing something and then prefecing it with "...except for...". Writing like that is just rediculous. While you education maybe a wonderful thing, it's no better than going to school and getting a degree in art. Until you actually get a job with a museum and can actually get your hands on some paintings and start examining them, all the book learning in the world isn't going to substitute for the real thing.

Yes, there are people here that have problems with graded cards, but it's genrerally with the slabbers lack of being to properly identify a card, not the technical grade. When there is a beef with ita grades, it's generally so far off that even a blind chimp could see it should not get that grade, the PSA3CJ Wagner that should be a PSA1 being one of the grossest examples I can think of.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Of course the market took a dump on new product in the 80s and 90s and 2000s; anything that is massively printed, traded in bricks of 100 or more cards (remember that?), and widely held is simply not worth squat. It is strictly a hype-driven market. Vintage stuff, on the other hand, has done nothing but increase in price over time. If the market lost 50% of its value today, there are plenty of collectors salivating to get in.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

"We may come across as holier than thou when it comes to card knwoledge because the knowledge we have obtained was hard fought for and tooks years and the handling of thousands of cards to gain this knowledge. Now with the internet, what took us old schoolers 10 years or more to learn can be learned ina matter of months, less the card handling. Nothing can substitute for that. You'll have to pardon our holier than thou attitute you seem to think we have, as we have earned this right."

OK, but just know that this attitude in general (as well as the frequent chastising of collectors) is exactly what discourages A LOT more knowledgeable people from posting here, which would make Net54 even that much better!

Just my 2 cents - feel free to chastise away.

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Posted By: John S

Daniel,

Are you still sore because I called you out regarding your true motivations for criticizing Barry, Leon, and other board members?
Would you like me to provide a CV documenting my collecting experience? That would be silly now wouldn't it? At the end of the day I am thankful for my family, collecting baseball cards is just a nice little diversion that has been a hobby of mine for the past thirty years. Does thirty years make me more knowledgeable than someone who has been doing it for five or ten years? Not necessarily, but I share my experiences and knowledge not to be boastful (again Daniel, they are only baseball cards) but to be helpful and add to the discussion. Whether you want to believe what I or others say is your decision. Do we need to foot-note every documentation?

You are simply an antagonist, and I am embarrased that I am even responsding but want to clarify a few things regarding your personal attacks.

Many of us on this board disagree about grading, collecting styles, what topics should be permitted to be discusessed, etc. However, most of us are open-minded enough to share the knowledge that we have and accept differences in opinion without getting too personal. If you believe that you are too lofty for the board, find a bigger pond.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

If you read your own posts before you submit them, and know what a pompous so and so you come across.

And how on earth can you say you know anything about my "true" motivations (seems nigh on impossible, let me know of your powers to do so), hint at it regularly in subsequent posts on different topics and make other snide comments, and feel you are immune to response?
If you want to take pot shots at me, just use the email below my name, you will need a little courage to do so though........


Ps. And if you care to read carefully, others who managed to respond to my post and responses, including Barry and William Heitman and others, made measured, intelligent comments. It seems the questions or posturing of them wasn't quite so offensive, or naive, or whatever you seem to judge them for others to bear.

Daniel

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Posted By: PC

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Posted By: edacra

It wasn't just the 80's-90's stuff that took a hit. I don't know if vintage cards are rebounding or just stayed stagnant, but there is some pricing which is about the same as it was in 1990.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

"In my study of graphic design / electronic design, I completed a full year of credits with focus to the printing process and all things related to applying images to paper. I did so in a full printing room with 6 color commercial heidelberg printer (30 feet long, 15 foot high, many many tonnes), and all requisite current industry standard machinery.
I worked with more presses, cutting machines, plate making, image setting, color testing, and most importantly, paper of every hue and fabrication and age - than I believe most - who at least equally have worked in this industry.
Makes me fairly expert on paper, and ink, and recognizing modern ink transfer on modern paper, and older lithographic processes.
I don't blurt this out as justification for my words, but just to have you know that in the thousands and thousands of vintage cards you have personally handled, there may just be expertise you will never gain that I have through my own life experiences."



That's a lot of "I" and "my" for someone who is asking us to tone down the self-aggrandizing.

As far as the expertise that you have that we will never gain, I guess we'll just have to learn to live with disappointment.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Jeff, Daniel is the one that claimed Barry, myself and others with extensive knowledge act holier than thou. Those are his words. I know I don't consider myself holier than thou, and I doubt Barry or anyone else does either. We just happen to have a lot of knowledge and this can be intimidating to some people.

As for my style of posting scaring people off, if this is case, then I feel sorry for these people because if they are intimidated by me, I would hate to think what meek existance these people live in real world where people really are intimidating. They must want to run away and crawl under a rock if they meet someone intimidating in person. You need to give people a little more credit. I'm sure there are some people that have been scared off by me, but I was brought up to stand behind my beliefs and fight for what I think is right. If that makes me a bad person, then so be it. I can go to sleep at night knowing that no one can run rough shod over me and that even if things don't go my way, at least I true to myself.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: Jeff P

Jay,
I don't think it's about people being intimidated by you or others on the board, it's just exhausting to know that if someone posts something, they then have to post 4 or 5 more messages just defending their original post, even on topics when an argument or debate really isn't even necessary.

Example:

If I say I like graded cards, I then get to hear all the messages about how I'm not a true collector and how vital it is to be able to touch and feel (and smell) the actual cardboard to gain any real insight or knowledge. How everyone like me who collects graded is a slab-head that wastes their money just collecting plastic and numbers.

What's the point of comments like that? Does that make for good open discussion? Is someone's personal collecting habbit a great topic for debate?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

"Jeff, Daniel is the one that claimed Barry, myself and others with extensive knowledge act holier than thou. Those are his words."
Firstly Jay, you are pulling together numerous posts that I have written, and somehow decided to attribute them to yourself and Barry, when I in fact did not name you thus. I spoke generically of an attitude in postings on this site, and never made mention of yourself or anyone else.
I referred to Barry for his post regarding a warning of tampered cards in his direct knowledge, and Leon similarly, and asked for those who had such knowledge to share it with us all. I also commented, in harsh terms, that I believed doing otherwise unacceptable if one chose to bring it up in a post in an attempt to rally support, but not give up the actual facts as they are known, or believed. I stand by the statement completely, and that is all I made mention of in regards to Barry and any other 'experts' at Net54.


It seems to me that you Jay are in fact the one that was willing to accept that you may come across as arrogant:
"We may come across as holier than thou when it comes to card knwoledge because the knowledge we have obtained was hard fought for and tooks years and the handling of thousands of cards to gain this knowledge. Now with the internet, what took us old schoolers 10 years or more to learn can be learned ina matter of months, less the card handling. Nothing can substitute for that. You'll have to pardon our holier than thou attitute you seem to think we have, as we have earned this right."

And then this.....
"While you education maybe a wonderful thing, it's no better than going to school and getting a degree in art. Until you actually get a job with a museum and can actually get your hands on some paintings and start examining them, all the book learning in the world isn't going to substitute for the real thing."
I did alot more than read some books, and thought my description of working with actual commercial printing machinery and handling actual paper whilst producing real commericial artwork for the public kind of made a point.....clearly it did not. I was merely attmepting to mitigate your denegrating description of my knowledge and experience as it is relevant to the hobby. First time I had spoken thus of my background on the chatboard, and I guess I'm embarrassed that this too has been somehow made the butt of your reply.


"A number of people want proof for the accusations that cards are being altered and finding their way into slabs (a reasonably clear reference to my post). "Use your eyes and experience...what further proof do you need? I believe that Gil stated that one of the negative consequences of grading is the dumbing down of the hobby, collectors relying on the third-party system for peace of mind rather than their own experience. I couldn't agree more."
Again, as I mentioned before, I think this is a pretty pointed insult to collectors who have other preferences for how they collect, and clearly tries to paint the picture that such collectors are 'dumbed down' for their choices. I couldn't agree less.


"By calling out Barry you put him in a bad position. He has no responsibility to identify individuals and it would not improve the hobby. I think you know that. What are your true intentions and motivation for this post Daniel? Protecting an investment?"
And...
"Are you still sore because I called you out regarding your true motivations for criticizing Barry, Leon, and other board members?"
How absurd a duo of statements was this?
And....
"You are simply an antagonist, and I am embarrased that I am even responsding but want to clarify a few things regarding your personal attacks."
If you don't believe these personal, and offensive, good luck to you.


"As I stated in another thread yesterday, and now the accusation is being made explicitly, any suggestion that Barry or Leon or anyone else is part of a coverup just because they have heard rumors about things or have some second or third hand indirect knowledge is just plain stupid and irresponsible. Who the heck are you to judge them, Daniel? Give me a break and give us all some peace."
I guess just another benign response to my post, in your opinion Jay. And Bruce.


"Collectors may know about more cards now, but they don't, as a rule, know more about cards. Obviously I'm not talking about the many knowledgeable contributors to this forum."
Well, nice to know that if your part of the Net54 inner circle, you may actually know something about cards. Otherwise, you're as dolt.


"Collect whatever you want, the way you want, but don't chastise us because we have knowledge that you will never have because of the way you collect."
Hmmm. Never huh. I guess I should just give up now.


"I would hate to think what meek existance these people live in real world where people really are intimidating. They must want to run away and crawl under a rock if they meet someone intimidating in person."
My address is 4413 Goldfield st, Lawrence KS 66049. You won't find me hiding under any rocks if you should choose to visit.


And a number of members have now suggested I leave the forum because of my views...and I'm considering it. Definitely isn't worth being bashed personally by people I hadn't even entered into an argument or discussion with, or to be asked to take insult after insult and not reply.


Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: jay behrens

Can you pull a single post where someone says that you are not a real collector if you collect slabbed cards? I don't recall this ever being said, but a lot of slab like to THINK that they have read this somewhere. It's kind of Baptists that are convinced the tribulation is in the bible, but it really isn't.

If people want to collect only slabbed cards, that is a perfectly acceptable way to collect. It's an easy way out of ot having to learn to authenticate the cards that you collect. That's fine. For some people, they feel they have better things to do than learn how to tell the difference between an real and fake card they collect and leave it a third party to do it for them. The point that most of us supposed anti-slabbers is that if you choose to collect only slabbed cards, then there is little chance that you will learn the ins and outs of being tell a real card from a fake when you finally make that find at an estate or garage sale. Wihout that knowledge, you have to decide if you want risk few hnder, or most likely a few thousand dollars on some cards you aren't whether they are real or not.

As for people that do want to have to defend a postition that they have posted, they can't be strong in their conviction of that stance if they aren't willing to defend it or listen to the other side. To me, that's just spineless and weak. But to each his own.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: jay behrens

Daniel, you may not have named names with your holier than thou diatribe, but you basically indicted all the knowledgable members of this board with your comment. For me and others if we take offense to it, but you have no one to blame but yourself for what you brought upon yourself.

Aren't you the same person that said we shouldn't be making assumptions? How do you explain this then?
Well, nice to know that if your part of the Net54 inner circle, you may actually know something about cards. Otherwise, you're as dolt.
No assumptions there at all that I can see

If you leave this board because of the ruckus you started here, you have no one to blame but yourself again and it will be your loss as everyone, including myelf, can learn a lot here. I got treated a whole lot worse when I first came here and earned the title Dunderhead, but I didn't run away because I was taken task for comments I made.

Just remember, cutting off your nose to spite your face is not a good thing.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

How proud the child feels when his whining and obnoxious behavior finally gets the attention of the adults!

... And if you care to read carefully, others who managed to respond to my post and responses, including Barry and William Heitman and others, made measured, intelligent comments. It seems the questions or posturing of them wasn't quite so offensive, or naive, or whatever you seem to judge them for others to bear.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

All done, won't be back.

Daniel

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Posted By: jay behrens

Damn it, Gil! I'm the one that is supposed to running off people

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

And Jeff, you raise an important point:

"OK, but just know that this attitude in general (as well as the frequent chastising of collectors) is exactly what discourages A LOT more knowledgeable people from posting here, which would make Net54 even that much better!

Just my 2 cents - feel free to chastise away."

My take on this is simply that taking this stuff sufficiently seriously to be discouraged from participating because the mix of crazies is not to your liking, is an error in judgement, imho. After all: this is only cards, and in this important hobby, I am indeed Only Gil.

I wish I could make our venue more hospitable than it is because I value the input of others many of whom I know or have dealt with, and perhaps many more that I do not know.

But some take this stuff to heart - don't go E, Daniel - I was just taking a shot 'cause I saw the opening - it is really only a game. Ask Jay.

Please don't be offended by the bravado. Heck, the slabheads stand up for themselves against the bottom feeders. It seems like a fun circus.

There sure is an open sharing of information, unless you question n172 too closely.

Come back E.Daniel, you come back and speak your mind. And I will thwack you every time I can.

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Posted By: Joann

I think we have a marvelously controlled forum for voicing all kinds of differences of opinion. Most flare ups seem to settle down quickly and all is well, with former combatants joining together as the battle lines are drawn in the next discussion. For the variety of personalities combined with intelligence and strength of opinions, I think this is a remarkably cohesive group (just watch what happens if some outsider come in and start thwacking).

So Daniel, as to the thwacking (hee, good word) you've taken lately, I think you've thwacked in the past and some might say this thing started with you thwacking someone else. But you contribute good thoughts and information, and are a model for engaging writing style, and are an asset to the dialog. If you want to go no one can stop that. But it would be a waste, and if everyone that rec'd the feedback you have in the past few days left over it, we'd hear echoes in here.

I just try to stay the hell out of it all. Sometimes successfully, sometimes less so. But it happens.

Joann

"Thwack not lest ye be thwacked." I think that's my new favorite saying.

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Posted By: Noel

This is a very sad turn of events. I think the real troubling hobby development is EDaniel not posting anymore. I tuned in nightly with ferver and great passion just to see what EDaniel had posted. He had become a favorite of sorts of mine. Kind of reminded me of a Jerry Springer episode. I can only hope that he will reconsider and come back.

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Posted By: leon

I hope E.Daniel doesn't leave. He has a right to his opinion just like everyone else. I have no issue with being taken to task for something I say or do. I can defend my stance or change it.....either choice is ok but in the end....as Gil says, and we all say, it's only cards. Collect what you like to collect. A lot of my cards are graded and a lot aren't. My guess is that is the way they will continue to be. Actually I really hope you don't go E.Daniel. It's differing views that make the world go around. Sort of like when I was the only Republican in a room full of Democrats in college. Oh, the fun.........

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Posted By: John S

Damn!!! I missed the fun. I don't think that I have been quoted as much in the last two years as in the last two days. Just to clarify, I have opinions and will defend them, but when it comes to cards who really cares? Slab them, keep them raw, use them to paper to inside of your underwear...your choice. I know my cards but understand that there are people that participate and read this board that know far more than I.

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Posted By: Jeff P

"I have opinions and will defend them, but when it comes to cards who really cares? Slab them, keep them raw, use them to paper to inside of your underwear...your choice."

Exactly! To each his own, that's all I'm saying.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

"I hope E.Daniel doesn't leave. He has a right to his opinion just like everyone else." - Leon

You know what they say about opinions - they're like a$$hole$, everybody has one. We all take turns wearing the "a$$hole hat."

There are NO egos in this forum - ouch, my nose just shot out and hit my monitor... to stop posting because of a family squabble is pointless. Someday the person with whom you may have a difference of opinion may answer a question for you in this arena and you'll have to laugh to yourself.

Jay - who let you out of the cage? Nope I'm not dogging you, just having a little fun.

Are we all pals again fellas?

Wow, this goes to show how a thread can change courses. You could go to the beginnig of the thread and follow the topic changes.

I find it more fun to take prescription medicines (insert lefthanded cigarettes, alcohol or what ever your vice happens to be) and start from the bottom of the thread and go backwards... it makes for a lot of wasted, but fun times...

Edited to change the spelling of *******s to a$$hole$

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Posted By: barrysloate

I started this thread with a provocative question and it got off to a good start. It seems to have deteriorated along the way. I hate to see members argue and then ultimately leave the board. I don't know Daniel but I ask him to reconsider when things die down and to come back on board. We've all had some tough times here- ask Jay Behrens who has suffered plenty of arrows and slings but he's tough as nails and sticks with it and I respect him for that. I hate the personal attacks although I realize they do happen; I've been walloped myself a few times. Anyway, this is a good thread and maybe we can get back on topic. Thanks for listening.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

How is the hobby prepared to deal with these very dangerous issues:

• Tampering with encapsulated cards
  
• The encapsulation of altered cards
  
• As cards become more expensive, there is a greater incentive to alter and counterfeit them in ever more sophisticated and difficult to detect ways.
  

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Posted By: PC

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Good evening, all.

I don't post a lot (though most of my posts regard T-206), but after reading through this thread, I'd like to comment on a few items if I may. Note that my e-mail address is accessible through the link, and several board members have sold and/or traded with me through the B/S/T and/or eBay, so I'm not exactly anonymous.

1) As noted, I don't post a lot. As a result, most of you know very little about me. I've only attended one National (A.C., 2003), as I won't fly anywhere when I can drive to Fort Washington in under 2 hours. I set up a table at one show at the Valley Forge Convention Center in PA in 1991. I've been on eBay since 1999. I even acquired some nice cards on the old Teletrade site. I used to be a co-worker with a son of Lew Lipset, and still compete in the same fantasy football league with him (though Lew doesn't know me, as I've never won an auction of his). Basically, no one really knows me. However, I've been a collector for over 20 years. Used to read SCD when it was still good, too. Anyways, though I don't say much, I am one of many, many collectors who have a decent knowledge base about vintage cards. Though I don't agree entirely with the "holier-than-thou" and "inner circle of Net 54" stuff, I do agree that there are a lot of collectors out there who could contribute, that people don't know about, but don't. I am one of many. (Disclaimer - I actually rarely post because someone else seems to always beat me to an answer to someone's query).

2) In Fred's bulleted queries in the prior post, I don't think that the large majority of the hobby, i.e., collectors, are willing to do anything to combat card tampering in any way. The knowledge base really isn't there. No offense to slab-only collectors, but I do agree with Jay that holding a card definitely provides a collecting education that most (not all -- E, Daniel excluded) slab collectors won't acquire. E, Daniel's knowledge of modern printing techniques is a good tool for ID-ing reprints, too. I will note that though most of my cards are not slabbed, I do own some that are. This leads me to . . . .

3) Mr. Heitman alluded to a collector's group founded in the late 1970's. Perhaps a new group could work with show promoters to help. I think one solution would be for major shows, including the National, to have free seminars during the shows to educate collectors on a wide variety of topics, lasting 30 minutes or so in order for collectors to gain insight on multiple topics and still have time to buy, buy, buy. For example, sample topics could include grading a card (could be specific by issue or in a general sense), how to identify fakes/tampered/altered/reprinted cards, buying/selling cards on eBay or with an auction house, history of T-206, the secrets of the Old Judge cards (I agree with Gil - a lot of deeply held secrets out there about Old Judge cards), spotlights on forgotten players, etc.

4) I think that those with firsthand knowledge and actual evidence about the famed PSA-8 Wagner should present it. From what I've read, the owner of the card is using it to promote that hobby. More information, whether or not it lowers the monetary value of the card and forces some to answer some tough questions, would only enhance the card's legend, and add to its story and mystique. Whether it was trimmed/altered or not, let's not forget it's a real, authentic Wagner, with an exceptional portrait appearance (no creases through the image!). For the record, I have no knowledge of the happenings or lack thereof pertaining to this card other than what I have read, good and bad, or this forum or on links presented here on this forum to other sites.

5) Overall, this board is a credit to the hobby. An experienced collector like myself found this site about 3 years ago (I know I posted in August of 2003, and without an SCD learned of the A.C. National in 2003 that summer), but other experienced collectors (E, Daniel for example) are just now finding this site, and many others haven't a clue about it. I think if those of you that set up at shows somehow promoted this board for the vintage community, perhaps even more experienced, knowledgable collectors could contribute, and the the less experienced, the new, and even the old could learn more (I'm sure some of you do somehow, but the more the merrier).

Well, there it is. My longest post ever. Leon, you're doing an excellent job moderating this board. Please keep up the good work. Thanks to all who post. Hopefully some of my thoughts will amount to something.

Mike (18colt)

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Mike,

I can't take credit for the three bulleted items that are a couple posts ahead of yours. These were issues that Barry had mentioned in the initial post to this thread.

There has been discussion in the past about seminar/workshops at the National but nothing ever seems to materialize. Perhaps this is something that we should all persue because such topic discussions at a major collecting event would be beneficial to so many. I think one reason this doesn't happen is because people are so busy walking the floor and catching up with hobby friends. I'd give up an hour of floor walking to listen to a good discussion regarding vintage cards.

It's good to see you posting.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I don't know why things are done as they are, but I sure that there is a darn good reason for it. With regard to: How is the hobby prepared to deal with these very dangerous issues:

Tampering with encapsulated cards

If I wanted a card encapsulated, I would want it in an air tight slab. One which was sealed in an environment ideal for permanent card storage. That is, containing the optimum humidity level to assure no damage to the card, and pollutant free, to achieve the same objective.

Of course this slab would be designed to be never opened, as such, opening it would destroy the holder.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I'm as paranoid as the next guy when it comes to the integrity of my slabs (ask Leon and my questions about Windex and Goo Gone)...

But are we giving ourselves high blood pressure over odds that aren't worth worrying about?

(Not trying to take sides, given my initial statement, but short of being present during the fabrication and encapsulation of these cards, what can we do)?????

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Posted By: Anonymous

http://cgi.ebay.com/24-Graded-cards-Mickey-Mantle-1952-Clemente-1955_W0QQitemZ130015229782QQihZ003QQcategoryZ26363 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

1952 Topps Mantle reprint in what appears to be a legitimate PSA 9 holder. Seller acknowledges that after many questions, it "may" have been tampered with.