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#1
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Overrated?
Posted By: robert a
Are there any cards out there that you feel might be a little overrated in terms of "rarity" or value? |
#2
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Overrated?
Posted By: Patrick McMenemy
With regards to Red Kleinow (catching,) the Boston variety is far more commmon than the New York version. The New York variety should be the one that is considered more difficult. |
#3
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Overrated?
Posted By: cmoking
1933 Goudey #3 Hugh Critz |
#4
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Overrated?
Posted By: Andrew Parks
How 'bout the T206 Wagner? There are 100 or so of them. Yet the card goes for 1.2 million in an 8 holder? Or even 100k for a beater. |
#5
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Overrated?
Posted By: Brett
You mean a trimmed* PSA 8 Wagner. |
#6
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Overrated?
Posted By: jay behrens
cmoking, that is exactly why EVERY low pop high grade card is overrated. Until such day comes that every single card known to exist is slabbed, low pop-high grade cards are going to overrated, overhyped and overpriced pieces of cardboard. |
#7
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Overrated?
Posted By: cmoking
Jay, I disagree. I think there are some legitimate low pop cards in high grade that really are super tough in high grade and will continue to be. For those that care about high grade cards (and I know many here could care less), the difficulty is figuring out which ones will still be tough after the years go by and which ones will see their pop reports go up to a more normal card in a particular set. |
#8
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Overrated?
Posted By: Bob
T207 Loudermilk. Tough but not one of the "Big 3" in the set. I would place Donlin, Rath, Sweeney or Downey as nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 behind Lewis and Ward Miller, in that order. |
#9
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Overrated?
Posted By: Noel
..can you expound upon *trimmed PSA 8 Wagner? I certainly agree that is by far and away the most overrated, overhyped card out there but I dont think it is trimmed. |
#10
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Overrated?
Posted By: dd
T206 Wagner |
#11
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Overrated?
Posted By: Chad
If you want to search it out, it's here somewhere. It's a great card, but it is trimmed. |
#12
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Overrated?
Posted By: Noel
and i really dont know enough about it to debate anything but my first thought was why has the card sold for so many astronomical figures in the past? Certainly the ones who are buying the card dont believe it is trimmed. Also, did someone at PSA admit to it being trimmed? If not, who are the ones who are deeming it trimmed? Just some thoughts and probably a lot of my own ignorance. |
#13
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Overrated?
Posted By: andy becker
hi noel, |
#14
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Overrated?
Posted By: Noel
This is the first i have heard of it...maybe it is just the novelty now. I have never heard of any fallout with PSA through all of this though. This was only the crown jewel of baseball cards and now the prominent grader/authenticator could not deem it trimmed or not? How many others are out there? I think i would rather have a beater than one that was trimmed. Speaking of beaters and overhyped cards, i remember going to a Memorial Day weekend show in SF a few years ago and seeing a Wagner in a PSA 1. The card had a bite (about 1/5 of the card) taken out of the corner along with multiple creases for the bargain price of $125,000! I remember thinking to myself, im not sure what i would rather own, a nice Jose Canseco card or something like that! |
#15
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Overrated?
Posted By: Andrew Parks
Gretzky and McCall almost didn't buy it because of the controservy swirling around it. |
#16
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Overrated?
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Andrew, Jay and Robert - |
#17
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Overrated?
Posted By: JimB
I have heard the rumor for years about the PSA 8 Wagner being trimmed. Does anybody have any actual proof? Or is this a Karl Rove type situation where if a lie gets told enough times eventually they will believe it? |
#18
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Overrated?
Posted By: jay behrens
Put it this way, there used to be an oversized Wagner withh a Piedmont back. This card seems to have disappeared and the PSA8 appeared after it's disappearance. Coincidence? I think not. Until someone produces that oversized Piedmont Wagner, doubt anyone will consider the PSA8 Wagner unaltered. |
#19
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Overrated?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
JimB |
#20
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Overrated?
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Least we not forget - "Remember the Alamo" |
#21
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Overrated?
Posted By: JimB
Jay and Ted, |
#22
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Overrated?
Posted By: Noel
Ted, I can certainly say you wouldnt be boring me with reports of how the pop reports are skewed. I would be very interested on how this works. I did get my undergraduate in business and learned more than i ever wanted to know about how numbers can be morphed into anything in an attempt to "prove" a point. I do rely on these reports however when i factor in cost of a card and how much i would be willing to pay. |
#23
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Overrated?
Posted By: JimB
Noel, |
#24
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Overrated?
Posted By: Noel
Thanks Jim. I guess the only way to account for some of these is to hope the original owner sends the flip back in. Kind of scary to think some of the low pops may in all actuality be much lower. |
#25
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Overrated?
Posted By: Rick
The card is real and unaltered for all practical purposes. |
#26
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Overrated?
Posted By: jay behrens
If the altered Wagner had been graded by SGC we would still be saying the same thing. Just because most people are pro-SGC around here does not mean we blindly follow SGC down the primrose path. |
#27
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Overrated?
Posted By: davidcycleback
I agree with Rick in that I assume the owners are well aware of what they are buying. Value-wise, whether or not the card is au natural is beside the point. |
#28
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Overrated?
Posted By: cmoking
I don't need as much proof as JimB does. Sometimes it isn't easy to filter out the truth when reading posts in a public forum, but in this case, I think it is pretty clear based on the comments made by several. |
#29
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Overrated?
Posted By: Brian Lindholme
I feel that this thread really drifted off the original thought...and maybe that's okay but here are a couple cards that I think hit the thread's intent : |
#30
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Overrated?
Posted By: leon
I would call the Old Judges in high grade, but with "shadows" for player, overgraded but not overrated. Overrated might be the whole registry game...but that is ONLY my opinion. It certainly has helped the hobby so I think that is a good aspect of it. Overrated could be T210's 6 months ago...... As for the Wagner, I have had too many very well respected folks tell me the same story not to believe it. Some of these folks are hobby icons that won't say this stuff publicly for various reasons. They have told me they have personally seen the card before and after. From what I know, and I had never seen the card prior to the "surgery", I would think there is a 99% chance it has been trimmed. The current owner came on the old FullCount board (this one's predecessor) and gave a very elegant statement about his thoughts, in a thread devoted (if any of them back then were devoted) to the card. He basically said that he didn't care if it was altered, didn't think it was, and used it to promote goodwill in the hobby. I applauded him for his statement and his philosophy on the subject. Nuff said....regards |
#31
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Overrated?
Posted By: JimB
How about this: Does anybody here know anybody that saw the card when it was oversized? Just to clear up my perspective, I presume there is some truth to the rumor, but I would just like to hear the slightest bit of evidence to substantiate it. Is this a case where nobody wants to piss someone off by pointing fingers? |
#32
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Overrated?
Posted By: leon
Like I said... |
#33
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Overrated?
Posted By: Rick
Leon ...would any of the people who told you about the card also be against grading in general ? |
#34
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Overrated?
Posted By: davidcycleback
Rick, I don't beleive PSA advocates even beleive that one. Go over to the CU board and you will see PSA collectors who are willing to point out when PSA has made a mistake. I have seen SGC collectors on this board point out when SGC has made mistakes or they otherwise disagree with their grades. |
#35
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Overrated?
Posted By: leon
Yes and no, to your question. They are against grading in general but have adapted and know that high end cards need to be graded to get the best prices.... I am sure it's not that they are against grading companies when they are talking about this card. As already said, Bill Heitman, had first hand knowledge and came on this board and discussed it.... |
#36
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Overrated?
Posted By: jay behrens
There is no way PSA will acknowledge that there is a problem with this card since it is THE marque card in the hobby. It would be a major blow their standing in the hobby to admit they slabbed an abviously trimmed card. As with every other major mistake PSA makes, they do their best to sweep it under the rug and try to make it go away without having to do anything. |
#37
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Overrated?
Posted By: Rick
We have to realize that most contributors to this board and to CU' s boards are experienced collectors ...maybe not in time put in but defenitly in knowledge and keeping up with current events. |
#38
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Overrated?
Posted By: jay behrens
Still doesn't change the reality that the card is altered. Grading services serve a purpose, but when they fail miserabley at that purpose, they should be taken to task for it and be held accountable. Sadly, the vast majority of people are sheep will just go blindly along with whatever a grading company says. That is not good. Your own knowledge should be as good or better than slabbers, or at least working towards that goal, otherwise, you have no business spending huge sums of money on cards, raw or slabbed. |
#39
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Overrated?
Posted By: Noel
I think it is safe to assume that all grading have made mistakes. But a mistake of this magnitude would seem to have taken a near inside job. Imagining the numbers of professional graders who looked at, it is staggering that not one could have caught this? I have no knowledge regarding identification of a trimmed card but apart from those who have first hand knowledge of this, who would be better qualified to identify a trimmed card than the professional grading companies? Jay, i too would love to see it submitted to SGC but unfortunately it probably wont happen in our lifetime. |
#40
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Overrated?
Posted By: andy becker
the card was the first ever graded by psa. i'm not saying that they knowingly graded a trimmed card, but i am saying that by grading THAT card psa got a huge boost of free publicity. |
#41
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Overrated?
Posted By: davidcycleback
Rick, PSA once mislabelled a T206 Heinie Wagner card as a Honus Wagner (card was T206 Heine Wagner, PSA label said it was a T206 Honus Wagner). Would you pay $19,000 for this card, considering $19,000 would be a steal for a T206 Honus Wagner? If you were selling this card on eBay, would you represent the card as a T206 Honus Wagner or a T206 Heinie Wagner that was mislabelled? |
#42
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Overrated?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
The more I read the posts on this Thread....the more I realized we have been |
#43
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Overrated?
Posted By: robert a
Obviously wasn't my intention for this thread to go into t206 wagner territory. Talk about boring......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. |
#44
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Overrated?
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
For those interested in the thread about the Wagner T206: |
#45
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Overrated?
Posted By: Andrew Parks
I read the thread and with this statement, Heitman lost me: "As electing George W. Bush proved, they haven't necessarily changed for the better. " |
#46
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Overrated?
Posted By: Rick
David |
#47
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Overrated?
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
Rick |
#48
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Overrated?
Posted By: warshawlaw
No mail order, ever, except from people I knew would accept returns. |
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